[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
[at-l] Re: at-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 21
- Subject: [at-l] Re: at-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 21
- From: janiek at bellsouth.net (janiek@bellsouth.net)
- Date: Sun Jul 18 11:06:35 2004
- References: <20040718110758.04E591CFA2@edina.hack.net>
WAIT A SEC. I am NOT 'people like you' and I am NOT a registered
Democrat. This is Georgia, not Alabama where I WAS registered Democrat, but
that was over eleven years ago, and I preferred to vote in the Democratic
Primary since the Republican one had NO ONE opposing anyone else.
So HOLD your THOUGHTS and don't get yourself in a wad, okay??
"People like you" and you think I am going to take YOU seriously?? Call me
a name, okay. How about Native American?? Huh? We can go back there. How
about 'gun toting woman'? We can go there, too. Hormonal B*tch works well,
too, since I'm currently NOT on HRT so I advise you NOT go there. No one
really likes me when I'm not on HRT, anyway. Other than the dogs. And
Crockett bit me a few weeks ago, so even he isn't sure.
What is with all this marxist-fascist-liberal-enviro terminology anyway?
The Western European's idea of destroying everything in his path in order to
use resources (including people) so that one man or one organization can
become rich is why we are having this discussion in the first place. Or is
it? It's always the person with the bigger gun who 'wins' and often that
person is not the person who actually cares about anyone other than himself.
Example 1: Look at Saddam's Iraq before the bigger guns of the USofA.
Example 2: Look at Iraq right now.
Example 3: Look at history -- Alexander the Great, etc etc. I'm not giving
a history lesson. Those who refuse to learn from history are destined to
repeat it. I think the USofA is learning right now that the 'bigger gun' is
no match in a battle with religious fanaticism.
Yeah, Bryan, the Republicans will again become the ones in "POWER" (your
word). There are plenty of Lobbiests who prey upon both sides of the isle
with no compunction (did I use that word correctly?). And just because an
organization is PRO-environment, does not automatically make it suspect.
There really ARE Republicans who are Conservationists. Not every Republican
is like Sam Walton.
Democrats "slither" and Republicans do what? Club their way to power?
Destroy the environment they live in to make a buck to get into power?
Works both ways, sonny.
I am NOT pro Bush and I am NOT pro Kerry. I don't even like Nader. I'm
probably going to just write in a name for President. So, how do you spell
J. Bryan Kramer?
And as for the Sierra Club -- they're a JOKE. They don't know who they're
supporting. One woman here in Georgia is openly racist and voted
pro-environment when it suited her and they supported her. I will NEVER
support them again. They's 'tainted' in my estimation.
Coosa Donaldson
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
BRAVO COOSA!!!!! Very well spoken. You speak on behalf of a lot of
"us"!!!!!
Janie (who happens to ALSO not currently be on HRT, btw)
----- Original Message -----
From: <at-l-request@backcountry.net>
To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 7:07 AM
Subject: at-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 21
> Send at-l mailing list submissions to
> at-l@backcountry.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> at-l-request@backcountry.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> at-l-owner@backcountry.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of at-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. still kicking, still on the correct side of the dirt
> (Paula Looper)
> 2. RE: Did Any of You See This?--- (W F Thorneloe)
> 3. RE: Did Any of You See This?--- (J Bryan Kramer)
> 4. Re: License to hike (william fitzpatrick)
> 5. Re: Kelly's comment (OT) (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 6. Re: License to hike (Bror8588@aol.com)
> 7. Re: Did Any of You See This?--- (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 8. Re: the power that don't be... (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 9. Re: AHS was Bush opens forest roads (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 10. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (W F Thorneloe)
> 11. Kelly's comment (OT) (Steve Adams)
> 12. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 13. Did Any of You See This?--- (Coyle306)
> 14. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (W F Thorneloe)
> 15. Re: RE: [at-l] AHS was Bush opens forest roads
> (Coosa Donaldson)
> 16. mayonaise story (Clark Wright)
> 17. I leave you kids alone for a few days... oops (Coosa Donaldson)
> 18. License to hike (Coosa Donaldson)
> 19. RE: RE: [at-l] AHS was Bush opens forest roads (J Bryan Kramer)
> 20. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 21. aspirin and such (I'm too dumb to figure out NSAIDS)
> (Clark Wright)
> 22. RE: parking (Richard H. Anderson)
> 23. AHS & what about . . . New Jersey? (Coosa Donaldson)
> 24. Re: I leave you kids alone for a few days... oops
> (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 25. Land for Maine's Future buying a mountain (Coosa Donaldson)
> 26. Re: mayonaise story (Bett Middleton)
> 27. parking (Dorothy)
> 28. More on Maine's Trails (Coosa Donaldson)
> 29. Re: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 30. Hikers that practice Meditation? (Chase Davidson)
> 31. Re: parking (Chase Davidson)
> 32. he started hiking the trail on March 25. (Coosa Donaldson)
> 33. Re: parking (Marsha)
> 34. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 35. Re: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 36. Alpine Rose delayed again! (Coosa Donaldson)
> 37. RE: parking (Richard H. Anderson)
> 38. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 39. Yogi in the News. (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 40. Saddleback expansion begins (Coosa Donaldson)
> 41. Re: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (GoVolsKelly@aol.com)
> 42. Re: Bush opens forest roads (Jim Bullard)
> 43. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (W F Thorneloe)
> 44. And at the "local" level (Coosa Donaldson)
> 45. Re: Kelly's comment (OT) (Bruce Calkins)
> 46. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 47. Re: AHS & what about . . . New Jersey? (Jim Bullard)
> 48. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (W F Thorneloe)
> 49. RE: AHS & what about . . . New Jersey? (J Bryan Kramer)
> 50. RE: FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---} (J Bryan Kramer)
> 51. RE: AHS & what about . . . New Jersey? (Jim Bullard)
> 52. Re: parking (Felix)
> 53. FantasyLand Apology (W F Thorneloe)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:49:24 -0400
> From: "Paula Looper" <palalee@charter.net>
> Subject: [at-l] still kicking, still on the correct side of the dirt
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <004501c46c26$66301240$0a02a8c0@floopsbook>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Please forgive me for posting this here, but I cannot possibly respond
> individually to all who have sent their thoughts and prayers in my
> direction.
>
> Surgery went without a hitch, first thing I saw upon waking was my
Frankie,
> telling me everything went well and that it was completely benign. Surgeon
> said it was probably a very old trauma like a car wreck that caused the
> knot, but better to have it out than not (so to speak) I slept most of
> yesterday away, including the ending of the Star Trek Nemesis movie, don't
> think I'll ever know how that one ended. I'm taking it very easy this
> weekend, will return to work on Monday (first time in awhile I've been
glad
> to have such a low-demand job!)
>
> I am very grateful for the support I have received here (and on the
> WomenHiker's list, too)
> Cannot wait to get back on the trails, but probably should wait until
> surgeon releases me.
>
> Squeaky
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] Did Any of You See This?---
> To: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <20040717180758.4859.qmail@web52001.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Bryan sages reports: "The FDA has been letting them get away with a lot,
they
> don't even have to show that a drug is effective anymore."
>
> Do you have a source for that? Did you just make that one up? Did someone
on
> Fox claim this?
>
> Even under the current administration, the FDA regulates food and dietary
> supplements for safety. Drugs are appproved / regulated for efficacy. Drug
> advertising is regulated for accuracy, but several things have been
loosely
> interpreted. Marketing to physicians is regulated, to assure that those
pens
> don't bribe us into selling more Dammital. There are "off label"
indications
> for many drugs, and drug companies get into trouble for marketing for
those
> (Abbott paid several hundred thousand for extravagant claims for Neurontin
> recently.)
>
> It is interesting that they don't regulate claims for water treatment
vendors.
>
> OrangeBug
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:47:25 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] Did Any of You See This?---
> To: <thornel@attglobal.net>, "at-l" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOGEDPHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I picked up a book at the library a couple of years ago which describes
> what's now happening. Apparently the FDA allows drug companies to show
that
> some biochemical marker is reduced by the drug treatment. For instance if
> enzyme x27 is *thought* to be a marker for heart failure; then a drug that
> reduces enzyme x27 would be allowed to be marketed for treatment of heart
> failure. The drug never has to be shown that it effectively reduces
disease
> mortality, just the marker reduction. There is some name for this theory
but
> it escapes me at the moment.
>
> The example the author used was some major drug released for heart failure
> under this theory that proceeded to kill a lot of patients. I don't recall
> the name of the drug but it was ten years or so ago.
>
> There was also a lot of covering up going on by the drug company in that
> particular case. I can try to dig up the name of the book if anyone is
> really interested.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> > Bryan sages reports: "The FDA has been letting them get away with
> > a lot, they
> > don't even have to show that a drug is effective anymore."
> >
> > Do you have a source for that? Did you just make that one up? Did
> > someone on
> > Fox claim this?
> >
> > Even under the current administration, the FDA regulates food and
dietary
> > supplements for safety. Drugs are appproved / regulated for efficacy.
Drug
> > advertising is regulated for accuracy, but several things have
> > been loosely
> > interpreted. Marketing to physicians is regulated, to assure that
> > those pens
> > don't bribe us into selling more Dammital. There are "off label"
> > indications
> > for many drugs, and drug companies get into trouble for marketing
> > for those
> > (Abbott paid several hundred thousand for extravagant claims for
Neurontin
> > recently.)
> >
> > It is interesting that they don't regulate claims for water
> > treatment vendors.
> >
> > OrangeBug
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > at-l mailing list
> > at-l@backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
> From: william fitzpatrick <jestbill@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] License to hike
> To: atl <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <20040717190508.97767.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Add in courses about LNT and you have Wingfoot's idea along with the
> (potential) political pull.
>
> Some places make the fishing license necessary because if you have to be
> rescued you pay the full cost of it unless you have bought one.
> -------------------------------
>
> There could even be different levels of membership/license divided by
> geographical areas (East Coast license or Western License or such). Why
there
> could even be time limited licenses such as a Day license or a Month
license or
> a three month license, etc., and it could be worked out that the
Government
> (National Park/Forest) gets 1/3 of the fee, the States (where people
reside get
> one-third and the various hiking organizations (designated by the hiker
who
> applies) gets one-third.
>
>
> =====
> JestBill Ga--->Me '03
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:35:53 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: [at-l] Re: Kelly's comment (OT)
> To: athummingbird@dnet.net, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <25.4aaa0a42.2e2ad999@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Florida's Crazy Laws
> " Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.
> " It is considered an offense to shower naked.
> " You are not allowed to break more than three dishes per day, or chip
the
> edges of more than four cups and/or saucers.
> " You are not allowed to break more than three dishes per day, or chip
the
> edges of more than four cups and/or saucers.
> " It is illegal to block any traveled wagon road.
> " Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the
salon
> owner.
> " If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to
be
> paid just as it would for a vehicle.
> " It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a swimsuit.
> " You may not fart in a public place after 6 P.M. on Thursdays.
> " Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.
> " It is illegal to skateboard without a license.
> " A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or
she
> shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.
> " Having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal.
> " It is illegal to eat cottage cheese on Sunday after 6:00 P.M.
>
> And Now Georgia:
> Georgia's Crazy Law's
> " Members of the state assembly cannot be ticketed for speeding while the
> state assembly is in session.
> " Donkeys may not be kept in bathtubs.
> " You have the right to commit simple battery if provoked by "fighting"
> words.
> " No one may carry an ice cream cone in their back pocket if it is
Sunday.
> " It is illegal to use profanity in front of a dead body which lies in a
> funeral home or in a coroners office.
> * All citizens must own a rake.
> " Against the law to tie a giraffe to a telephone pole or street lamp.
> " One man may not be on another man's back.
> " Can't cut off a chicken's head on Sunday.
> " It is illegal to carry a chicken by it's feet down Broadway on Sunday.
> * Chicken must be eaten with the hands. (My kinda law)
> " It is illegal to say "Oh, Boy"
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> athummingbird@dnet.net writes:
>
>
> > Believe it or not, there is STILL a law here in Georgia that states that
it
> > is okay to beat your wife as long as you do it with an open hand and not
> > your fist. (Not exact words, but close).
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:37:45 EDT
> From: Bror8588@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] License to hike
> To: jestbill@yahoo.com, at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <90.48df9267.2e2ada09@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 7/17/04 15:25:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
jestbill@yahoo.com
> writes:
>
>
> > Add in courses about LNT and you have Wingfoot's idea along with the
> > (potential) political pull.
> >
> >
>
> I would hope that even if WF has this same idea that it would be
considered
> as a voluntary effort by hikers. Not necessarily a payment to the
government
> (as a license) but as an effort of hikers to join AHS or the ATC or some
other
> organization that has Hikers needs at the top of their priorities.
>
> Skylander
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:39:16 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Did Any of You See This?---
> To: thornel@attglobal.net, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1d7.2624a105.2e2ada64@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I was being over dramatic. Kenny (the Boy) will take medication, but only
if
> gets "bad" enough. I have a low threshold of pain, so I take medication
more
> frequently than he does.
>
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> thornel@attglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > Learn how to judge pain and when / how to treat it. Learn what to
> > anticipate
> > with the chronic use of any medication. Learn to balance risks and
benefits.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:44:14 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] the power that don't be...
> To: shellydhale@earthlink.net, AThiker@smithville.net,
> at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <25.4aaa0a47.2e2adb8e@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Girl, you've got a career in comedy if that business admin thang don't
work
> out!
>
> Flying pigs....
>
> And I called you "GIRL!" My NOW membership card just burst into flames.
>
> GoVols
>
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:47:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> shellydhale@earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> > NEWS FLASH!!!!!
> >
> > Hikers on the AT have been bombarded by flying pigs. The new aero-swine
> > with freshly sprouted wings began appearing in the skies last Friday and
> > have left scientists scratching their heads in amazement. After much
> > searching and digging, it has been found that this phenomenal event is
the
> > direct result of a posting by Miss Poster, KellyGoVols of the at-l list.
In
> > addition, it has been discovered that Hell has officially frozen over
and
> > was caused by the group hug of Weary, Jim, Bryan, and Steve.
> >
> > Shelly (LMAO) Hale
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:57:41 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] AHS was Bush opens forest roads
> To: jbryankramer@msn.com
> Cc: AT-L@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1db.2676901e.2e2adeb5@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Jeez, now my title is:
> "Neo-fascist Feminazi card carrying member of Now GoVols."
>
> Durn.
>
> Do you have anything against football? I need some sort of cute name I
can
> add to the above ridiculous title. GoVols seems awfully tame compared to
the
> rest.
>
> GoVols (for short)
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 12:26:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
> > Heh, you may think about having your reality apparatus checked out. What
do
> > you think the Sierra Club and an endless list of other enviro-fascist
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: J Bryan Kramer <jbryankramer@msn.com>, at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <20040717195846.71889.qmail@web52008.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Oh, some book you saw a few years ago - but can't recall the name or the
> examples. _They_ must have made it up.
>
> Yeh, right.
>
> Bryan, try reading on this topic at www.FDA.GOV You might take a shortcut
to
> http://www.fda.gov/fdac/special/newdrug/ndd_toc.html which reviews the
process
> from animal trials, human trials and larger population efficacy studies.
It
> even reviews MedWatch, a program to detect problems post-approval when a
large
> enough population takes a drug to demonstrate rare but significant
problems.
> Sometimes, drugs are even withdrawn from the US market.
>
> Yes, researchers like to propose a pathophysiological reasons/theories to
> invest millions in researching a chemical. We have many great stories of
> serendipitus discoveries, but those are becoming increasingly rare. I
really
> would like to see if you can find a single drug approved by the FDA solely
> because a pharmaceutical company claimed that it would have an effect on
an
> enzyme/marker/anything, and never looked at any supporting evidence for
safety
> and efficacy.
>
> OrangeBug
>
> --- J Bryan Kramer <jbryankramer@msn.com> wrote:
> > I picked up a book at the library a couple of years ago which describes
> > what's now happening. Apparently the FDA allows drug companies to show
that
> > some biochemical marker is reduced by the drug treatment. For instance
if
> > enzyme x27 is *thought* to be a marker for heart failure; then a drug
that
> > reduces enzyme x27 would be allowed to be marketed for treatment of
heart
> > failure. The drug never has to be shown that it effectively reduces
disease
> > mortality, just the marker reduction. There is some name for this theory
but
> > it escapes me at the moment.
> >
> > The example the author used was some major drug released for heart
failure
> > under this theory that proceeded to kill a lot of patients. I don't
recall
> > the name of the drug but it was ten years or so ago.
> >
> > There was also a lot of covering up going on by the drug company in that
> > particular case. I can try to dig up the name of the book if anyone is
> > really interested.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:10:08 -0400
> From: "Steve Adams" <stephensadams@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [at-l] Kelly's comment (OT)
> To: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY18-F37NOHAeEpwVr00022786@hotmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Kelly,
>
> Reference your post, dated 7-17-04, providing some of the odd legislation,
> particularly "Members of the state assembly cannot be ticketed for
speeding
> while the state assembly is in session."
>
> In the District of Columbia, police cannot delay a U.S. Senator or U.S.
> Representative who is on the way to cast a vote. This gem is used by
> congresspersons to avoid speeding tickets; the cop can't delay the
offender
> long enough to write a ticket.
>
> One enterprising District Police Officer stopped, but then released, a
> Senator who used this privilege to "get away." The police officer
followed
> our leader, then mailed him tickets for (I've forgotten the actual number)
> about 15 traffic lights the officer observed him run.
>
> The court denied the Senator's request to have the tickets dismissed.
>
> Sort of an urban "Catch and Release" program.
>
> Steve
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Planning a family vacation? Check out the MSN Family Travel guide!
> http://dollar.msn.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:12:13 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: <thornel@attglobal.net>, "at-l" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOEEEDHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> You know you are a real horse's ass, are you capable of polite discourse?
>
> The drug was Tambocor or flecainide. The surrogate that the drug was
tested
> for was ekg changes. And apparently several thousands of people died.
>
> "The medical community was looking for an oral lidocaine. ... In the
1980s,
> the experience in the coronary care unit showed that lidocaine given by
vein
> could get rid of irregular heartbeats and prevent your heart from
> fibrillating -- that's where your heart just stopped pumping. That
> experience led physicians to say, "We need a pill to be able to treat
> patients which come to see us who may or may not have had a heart attack.
> But they've got an irregular heart rhythm, they can feel the palpitations,
> they can feel their heart skip. We want to get rid of that, because we
think
> it puts them at risk for sudden death."
>
> A lot of the companies were developing these drugs. Patients were
prescribed
> medicines to make their heart rhythm regular, hoping it would prevent
death.
>
> But when the cardiac arrhythmia suppression trial [CAST] was done, we
found
> that even though the cardiogram was looking better and the irregular
> heartbeats were gone, there were actually twice as many deaths in the
people
> taking encainide or flecainide, another medication known as Tambocor, than
> the people taking placebo. So Tambocor stayed on the market with major
> restrictions, encainide was removed, and it stopped the development of a
> whole class of drugs, because we recognized a toxicity that would never
have
> been found if the NIH hadn't done a prospective, randomized, controlled
> trial. . "
>
>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/interviews/woosle
> y.html
>
> your preferred socialial peoples broadcasting system website too, the book
> was:
>
> DEADLY MEDICINE by Moore
>
> "Moore makes clear that proof of the effectiveness (much less the safety)
of
> Tambocor has never been adequately established. Approval was based on a
> theory that by suppressing premature ventricular complexes (PVCs) doctors
> would save their patients from sudden death. There was no evidence for
such
> a theory. This was the pet idea of some of the marquee
> professors--convenient, since drugs existed to stop PVCs. But the theory
> turned out to be wrong, tragically wrong. And hundreds of thousands of
> people may have lost their lives because of this drug company inspired
> theory. It makes one wonder where exactly is the "science" in "scientific
> medicine"?
>
> What finally exposed Tambocor was an NIH clinical trial called the Cardiac
> Arrhthymia Suppression Trial (CAST). This showed that Tambocor and Enkaid
> caused dramatically more deaths than did the placebo. The story of how
this
> test unfolded is extremely detailed and at times may be difficult to
follow.
> But it is worth whatever effort you put into understanding it. Moore's
book
> explains, better than any other writings I know, how drug companies
> manipulate the whole testing process. One small bright spot is that NIH
> officials come off better in this account than you might expect,
especially
> when viewed in comparison with FDA."
>
> http://www.ralphmoss.com/cach381.html
>
>
> Sorry I wasn't able to satisfy you instantly with the book title and drug
> name, I read hundreds of books a year and they tend to blur together. A
> problem I know you don't have since its so hard to insert a book up your
> anal cavity where your head is.
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: W F Thorneloe [mailto:thornel@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 14:59
> > To: J Bryan Kramer; at-l
> > Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> > This?---}
> >
> >
> > Oh, some book you saw a few years ago - but can't recall the name or the
> > examples. _They_ must have made it up.
> >
> > Yeh, right.
> >
> > Bryan, try reading on this topic at www.FDA.GOV You might take a
> > shortcut to
> > http://www.fda.gov/fdac/special/newdrug/ndd_toc.html which
> > reviews the process
> > from animal trials, human trials and larger population efficacy
> > studies. It
> > even reviews MedWatch, a program to detect problems post-approval
> > when a large
> > enough population takes a drug to demonstrate rare but
> > significant problems.
> > Sometimes, drugs are even withdrawn from the US market.
> >
> > Yes, researchers like to propose a pathophysiological reasons/theories
to
> > invest millions in researching a chemical. We have many great stories of
> > serendipitus discoveries, but those are becoming increasingly
> > rare. I really
> > would like to see if you can find a single drug approved by the FDA
solely
> > because a pharmaceutical company claimed that it would have an
> > effect on an
> > enzyme/marker/anything, and never looked at any supporting
> > evidence for safety
> > and efficacy.
> >
> > OrangeBug
> >
> > --- J Bryan Kramer <jbryankramer@msn.com> wrote:
> > > I picked up a book at the library a couple of years ago which
describes
> > > what's now happening. Apparently the FDA allows drug companies
> > to show that
> > > some biochemical marker is reduced by the drug treatment. For
> > instance if
> > > enzyme x27 is *thought* to be a marker for heart failure; then
> > a drug that
> > > reduces enzyme x27 would be allowed to be marketed for
> > treatment of heart
> > > failure. The drug never has to be shown that it effectively
> > reduces disease
> > > mortality, just the marker reduction. There is some name for
> > this theory but
> > > it escapes me at the moment.
> > >
> > > The example the author used was some major drug released for
> > heart failure
> > > under this theory that proceeded to kill a lot of patients. I
> > don't recall
> > > the name of the drug but it was ten years or so ago.
> > >
> > > There was also a lot of covering up going on by the drug company in
that
> > > particular case. I can try to dig up the name of the book if anyone is
> > > really interested.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:41:24 -0400
> From: Coyle306 <coyle306@localnet.com>
> Subject: [at-l] Did Any of You See This?---
> To: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <127468133.20040717174124@localnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> WT> .... Even under the current administration, the FDA regulates food
> WT> and dietary supplements for safety...........
>
> Hardly. Human growth hormone stimulators, "natural male enhancement
> products (there are commercials for this stuff on network TV for
> heaven's sake), colon cleansers, concentration enhancers, Creatine,
> and worse!
>
> If I were a physician, I'd be very upset at the drug company ads
> designed to get patients to ask for a certain drug, rather than rely
> on their doctor's skill and expertise.
>
> Since, I believe, 1994, the FDA and Congress have basically punted on
> this. Almost any quack product can be sold with impunity if it's
> labeled "dietary supplement" and "not for treatment of disease".
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:49:13 -0400
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040717173430.025d87e0@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> I salute your genius, investigation and prose!
>
> If only it had something to do with the AT and/or reality.
>
> Have you shown that there were _no_ clinical trials prior to approval of
> that agent. Have you shown that this was a failure of your government
with
> checks and balances, even among agencies of the Executive Branch? It is
> really not uncommon nor a scandal that adverse events result in drug
> withdrawal and restrictions after marketing. There is a major difference
in
> a premarket, Phase III, study with a few hundred carefully selected
> patients and real world thousands and millions of patients in the first
> couple of years. That event resulted in several efforts to slow down
> product approval and increase placebo control studies.
>
> If you wanted to cite some current history, Serzone might have been a
> better argument. You might have even discussed FDA's very recent efforts
to
> force pharmaceutical companies to publicize unfavorable studies, such as
> the lack of studies showing benefit of Paxil in depressed adolescents.
> Rhabdomyalysis from some statins has been a problem, with Baycor a great
> example of post-marketing problems.
>
> Go take some Dammital and calm down.
>
> OrangeBug
>
> <Didn't Tambocor occur during Bush I?>
>
> At 05:12 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> >Sorry I wasn't able to satisfy you instantly with the book title and drug
> >name, I read hundreds of books a year and they tend to blur together. A
> >problem I know you don't have since its so hard to insert a book up your
> >anal cavity where your head is.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:10:45 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: Re: RE: [at-l] AHS was Bush opens forest roads
> To: at-l@backcountry.net, Bror8588@aol.com, "J Bryan Kramer"
> <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Message-ID:
> <5cf985ba49ed4600a48ab75adcbe8be4.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> WAIT A SEC. I am NOT 'people like you' and I am NOT a registered
Democrat. This is Georgia, not Alabama where I WAS registered Democrat, but
that was over eleven years ago, and I preferred to vote in the Democratic
Primary since the Republican one had NO ONE opposing anyone else.
>
> So HOLD your THOUGHTS and don't get yourself in a wad, okay??
>
> "People like you" and you think I am going to take YOU seriously?? Call
me a name, okay. How about Native American?? Huh? We can go back there.
How about 'gun toting woman'? We can go there, too. Hormonal B*tch works
well, too, since I'm currently NOT on HRT so I advise you NOT go there. No
one really likes me when I'm not on HRT, anyway. Other than the dogs. And
Crockett bit me a few weeks ago, so even he isn't sure.
>
> What is with all this marxist-fascist-liberal-enviro terminology anyway?
>
> The Western European's idea of destroying everything in his path in order
to use resources (including people) so that one man or one organization can
become rich is why we are having this discussion in the first place. Or is
it? It's always the person with the bigger gun who 'wins' and often that
person is not the person who actually cares about anyone other than himself.
>
> Example 1: Look at Saddam's Iraq before the bigger guns of the USofA.
> Example 2: Look at Iraq right now.
> Example 3: Look at history -- Alexander the Great, etc etc. I'm not
giving a history lesson. Those who refuse to learn from history are
destined to repeat it. I think the USofA is learning right now that the
'bigger gun' is no match in a battle with religious fanaticism.
>
> Yeah, Bryan, the Republicans will again become the ones in "POWER" (your
word). There are plenty of Lobbiests who prey upon both sides of the isle
with no compunction (did I use that word correctly?). And just because an
organization is PRO-environment, does not automatically make it suspect.
There really ARE Republicans who are Conservationists. Not every Republican
is like Sam Walton.
>
> Democrats "slither" and Republicans do what? Club their way to power?
Destroy the environment they live in to make a buck to get into power?
>
> Works both ways, sonny.
>
> I am NOT pro Bush and I am NOT pro Kerry. I don't even like Nader. I'm
probably going to just write in a name for President. So, how do you spell
J. Bryan Kramer?
>
> And as for the Sierra Club -- they're a JOKE. They don't know who they're
supporting. One woman here in Georgia is openly racist and voted
pro-environment when it suited her and they supported her. I will NEVER
support them again. They's 'tainted' in my estimation.
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
> ==============================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J Bryan Kramer
> > Heh, you may think about having your reality apparatus checked out. What
do
> > you think the Sierra Club and an endless list of other enviro-fascist
> > organizations do? By turning the AHS into a similar leftist group, if
they
> > aren't already you will instantly guarantee that you'll never get
anything
> > from the political party now in power. Even if the dems slither back
into
> > power the republicans will eventually return to power.
> >
> > Why can't people like you see that it would be better to adopt a neutral
> > position and be honest brokers in the issues that you are interested in.
> > That way you can deal with both parties and be a lot more successful. By
> > being fully owned subsidiaries of the dems you cut your political clout
in
> > more than half since it takes 60 votes in the Senate to get a bill
passed.
> > Furthermore the dems know you won't vote for anyone else and they can
safely
> > ignore you when it suits them.
> >
> > Bryan
> > >
> > > POLITICAL CLOUT is exactly what we need. >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:22:11 -0400
> From: Clark Wright <icw@esisnet.com>
> Subject: [at-l] mayonaise story
> To: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <40F9A693.3020409@esisnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I'm glad to see felix has got us on a nourishing topic! :) true story -
> my best friend and hiking buddy grew up in a family that never
> refrigerated their mayonaise jars after opening . . . I still remember
> having an argument with paul on this way back when we were kids in
> elementary school - of course, I won by challenging him to read the
> label ("refrigerate after opening") . . . this was one of the early
> signs of my impending lawyer doom :)
>
> while thinkin' of food and such, if ya need a little entertainment over
> the weekend, try checking out all the ketchup labels in the grocery
> store to see if they recommend refrigerating after opening (some do, but
> some don't! - now go figure that one . . .)
>
> thru-thinker.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:31:49 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] I leave you kids alone for a few days... oops
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <3a8db9bbea87497c9f0de86403ef4121.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> And the place turns into a eco-politics discussion group.
> Please refrain from following up to these threads. No one is changing
> any minds. These are important topics, but this is not a suitable forum.
> Thanks,
> -Ryan
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> OOps, posted to message before reading the Digest.
> That last post was my last on that subject.
>
> We've really been pretty good, other than a few name callings. No one has
threatened havoc (other than yours truly) on anyone.
>
> And of course mine was tongue in cheek. Really. I'm too busy to actually
go out hunting up people to bop over the head, a la "Little Bunny Fru Fru."
>
> This recent discussion was mild compared to some in the past. And kind of
enlightening and fun.
>
> Refrain -- isn't that like the tag line of a song that gets repeated a
lot?
>
> Where's that dictionarious person?
>
> C@@sa
>
> Confusion say: Don't eat too fast or you'll catch a cold.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:42:52 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] License to hike
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <3396869477db477fbed49db5c9212265.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> jestbill wrote:
> Some places make the fishing license necessary because if you have to be
> rescued you pay the full cost of it unless you have bought one.
> ***********************************
>
> I can understand that. Didn't we discuss this a year or two ago? Maybe
three, time passes faster the older you get. Wasn't someone rescued who it
turned out wasn't in real need (just tired) and used a cellfone to call for
help? And some Park wasn't it? said they were going to start charging for
'rescues'?
>
> What ever happened with that?
>
> This egroup changes directions more than a compass with a magnet held
under it.
>
> (Like that one?)
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:38:07 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: RE: [at-l] AHS was Bush opens forest roads
> To: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>,
> <at-l@backcountry.net>, <Bror8588@aol.com>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOAEEGHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> There are plenty of Republicans who believe in conservation. That is my
> point exactly. But the leftists, apparently not you Coosa, have adopted a
> virulently democratic political stance. My point is that they would have a
> much better chance of getting _some_ of what they want by moving to the
> center. If a republican supports one of their positions, work with him.
>
> The absolutely partisan state of the Congress right now means that nothing
> can get passed without a supermajority of 60 votes in the Senate. I don't
> see any sign that either party will achive that majority in the near
future.
>
> The big example of this foolishness right now is the forest thinning
> problem. If the Sierra Club worked honestly with the administration they
> might be able to influence the inevitable policy. Fires burning down
peoples
> homes generates such a political storm that neither party will be able to
> resist it. Its especially true when you get the park service starting the
> fires in the first place. But the environmentalists rather than adopting a
> realpolitik plan and influencing the final outcome have instead put their
> heads firmly in the sand.
>
> The same can be said of a lot of people on the list.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> > Yeah, Bryan, the Republicans will again become the ones in
> > "POWER" (your word). There are plenty of Lobbiests who prey upon
> > both sides of the isle with no compunction (did I use that word
> > correctly?). And just because an organization is
> > PRO-environment, does not automatically make it suspect. There
> > really ARE Republicans who are Conservationists. Not every
> > Republican is like Sam Walton.
> > > aren't already you will instantly guarantee that you'll never
> > get anything
> > > from the political party now in power. Even if the dems slither
> > back into
> > > power the republicans will eventually return to power.
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:40:42 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "W F Thorneloe" <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOEEEGHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of efficacy and
I
> gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong. Tell me
how
> many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes up?
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> >
> > I salute your genius, investigation and prose!
> >
> > If only it had something to do with the AT and/or reality.
> >
> > Have you shown that there were _no_ clinical trials prior to approval of
> > that agent. Have you shown that this was a failure of your
> > government with
> > checks and balances, even among agencies of the Executive Branch? It is
> > really not uncommon nor a scandal that adverse events result in drug
> > withdrawal and restrictions after marketing. There is a major
> > difference in
> > a premarket, Phase III, study with a few hundred carefully selected
> > patients and real world thousands and millions of patients in the first
> > couple of years. That event resulted in several efforts to slow down
> > product approval and increase placebo control studies.
> >
> > If you wanted to cite some current history, Serzone might have been a
> > better argument. You might have even discussed FDA's very recent
> > efforts to
> > force pharmaceutical companies to publicize unfavorable studies, such as
> > the lack of studies showing benefit of Paxil in depressed adolescents.
> > Rhabdomyalysis from some statins has been a problem, with Baycor a great
> > example of post-marketing problems.
> >
> > Go take some Dammital and calm down.
> >
> > OrangeBug
> >
> > <Didn't Tambocor occur during Bush I?>
> >
> > At 05:12 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > >Sorry I wasn't able to satisfy you instantly with the book title and
drug
> > >name, I read hundreds of books a year and they tend to blur together. A
> > >problem I know you don't have since its so hard to insert a book up
your
> > >anal cavity where your head is.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:43:41 -0400
> From: Clark Wright <icw@esisnet.com>
> Subject: [at-l] aspirin and such (I'm too dumb to figure out NSAIDS)
> To: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <40F9AB9D.8080006@esisnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> seein folks talk about aspirin and bleeding and such, I had to throw my
> two cents in . . . [and I did stay in a holiday inn express last night,
> or at least my doctor Dad once did! :)]
>
> 1) aspirin is the oldest, and - for most people - the safest drug in
> the world . . . however, like anything that "goes bump in the night"
> (i.e., does something to you), there are some for who it is
> inappropriate. For those who can tolerate it, however, there is a
> continual stream of good news . . .
>
> 2) The latest on aspirin is that there is new medical research
> suggesting that various forms of cell-level inflammation may be tied to
> all kinds of diseases, from heart disease to diabetes, to many others .
> . . some incredibly interesting (to me, at least) new research suggests
> that it is inflammation in the lining of our blood vessels that causes
> most heart attacks, and that the role of cholesterol is mostly one of
> providing food for certain bacteria that inflame the walls of these
> vessels. Yes, before you fill the list with rebuttals, there is clearly
> a link between cholesterol and hard (calcium type compounds involved)
> buildups in the arteries, and for people with that condition, where
> blockages are occurring, bypass surgery and stents and angioplasty are
> still good tools to use - but they do not anwer the more pressing
> question about the other 70% of heart attack victims who do not have any
> clogged arteries (at least not prior to the heart attack, that is!).
> What the new research suggests is that certain common bacteria (from the
> C-Pneumonae family, I think) often get into our bodies (recent estimates
> put the figure at 70+ percent have this bacteria inside by the age of
> something like 60) and take up residence in the blood vessel walls,
> feeding on "soft" cholesterols and engaging in low to medium level wars
> with our immune systems . . . it is now postulated that the majority of
> heart attacks that occur without prior arterial clogging symptoms are
> due to these inflammations going out of control, with the bacteria
> eating thru the blood vessel wall and into the blood stream, thereby
> causing an acute clog and heart attack . . .
>
> I can't think of the doc's name who has just written a book on this
> topic, but I do recall the summary of his advice, based on the growing
> body of evidence re the link between inflammation and heart disease, and
> other diseases - and, as you might guess, the first piece of advice is
> to take a baby sized does of aspirin every single day for the rest of
> your life, man or woman, old or young - as long as your stomach can
> stand it, and there are no other contraindications due to other medical
> probems or contra-indicated medications. His second piece of advice for
> those in their 40s and over is to get a blood test for C-Pnemonae
> bacteria and, if positive, to take a regimen of antibiotics to get rid
> of the bacteria. His third, and most controversial, piece of advice is
> for just about everyone that can tolerate them to take one of the common
> statin drugs on a prophylactic basis - he also recommends that the FDA
> allow these to be sold over the counter . . . anyhow, some interesting
> stuff here, and we all know that inflammation problems of all kinds are
> hiking related! :)
>
> 3) One other thing you may not know about ye olde aspirin - it can
> really help reduce your ability to sunburn - aspirin improves the
> circulatory systems efficieny, which also serves to improve your body's
> ability to cool itself through capillary action near the skin surface . .
.
>
> I take an aspirin every day, and plan to for the rest of my life - but
> on the trail, when the going gets tough, I switch to ibuprofen, which
> for me is a wonder drug . . . it even kills my occasional stress-induced
> migraines . . . ibuprofen, however, is not as safe as aspirin - remember
> Alonzo Mourning's near death experience?
>
> Well, that's enough medical thinking for my poor brain - I might have to
> either take an aspirin, or get the wild turkey out! :)
>
> thru-thinker
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:47:05 -0400
> From: "Richard H. Anderson" <randerson58@comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] parking
> To: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <EOEJJGCHGBBCKIEFMAOFGEEIDEAA.randerson58@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> As a sectional hiker, where do I look to ascertain the availability of
> parking for vehicles near the AT.
>
> RHA
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:59:52 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> To: at-l@backcountry.net, Bror8588@aol.com, "J Bryan Kramer"
> <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Message-ID:
> <5c8f749bb51e45a183284198acb3befc.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> So if I'm not a leftist, I'm okay? Thanks, I think.
>
> Remember, I was a Goldwater Girl in High School!
>
> What I have learned is that when you vote "the man" you end up voting "the
party" and you get stuck with "the party" which ain't no "party" a-tall.
>
> And the "problem" with "center" is that it's just like "compromise" which
is a political term for "neither side is happy with this decision" and one
gives as much as it gets. The results are not always good. I'd say the
results are usually questionable.
>
> Some of our 'crazy' laws on the books that GoVolsKelly has been peppering
us with are crazy because they're 'compromises' -- like not doing something
on a Sunday (talk about your Sunday 'blue' laws?) It's 'okay' to do
something on Saturday or Monday, but not on Sunday? Because????????
They're silly and funny "now" but were the heart of seriousness "then."
>
> >>Now, has ANYONE heard about the woman who burned herself on the AT in
New Joisey? Any of you New Jersey hikers know anything?<<
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J Bryan Kramer
> > There are plenty of Republicans who believe in conservation. That is my
> > point exactly. But the leftists, apparently not you Coosa, have adopted
a
> > virulently democratic political stance. My point is that they would have
a
> > much better chance of getting _some_ of what they want by moving to the
> > center. If a republican supports one of their positions, work with him.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:05:40 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] I leave you kids alone for a few days... oops
> To: lorac4491@linkamerica.net
> Cc: AT-L@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <59.10c90f2d.2e2b0ac4@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I am having a blast reading these posts. The lurkers must be having a
ball.
>
> GoVols
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 6:58:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> lorac4491@linkamerica.net writes:
>
>
> > And the place turns into a eco-politics discussion group.
> > Please refrain from following up to these threads. No one is changing
> > any minds. These are important topics, but this is not a suitable forum.
> > Thanks,
> > -Ryan
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > OOps, posted to message before reading the Digest.
> > That last post was my last on that subject.
> >
> > We've really been pretty good, other than a few name callings. No one
has
> > threatened havoc (other than yours truly) on anyone.
> >
> > And of course mine was tongue in cheek. Really. I'm too busy to
actually
> > go out hunting up people to bop over the head, a la "Little Bunny Fru
Fru."
> >
> > This recent discussion was mild compared to some in the past. And kind
of
> > enlightening and fun.
> >
> > Refrain -- isn't that like the tag line of a song that gets repeated a
lot?
> >
> > Where's that dictionarious person?
> >
> > C@@sa
> >
> > Confusion say: Don't eat too fast or you'll catch a cold.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:14:28 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Land for Maine's Future buying a mountain
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <a2e6e26ee56a422c93a6cea8665f8003.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/news/local/823239.shtml
>
> A small segment of the article:
> The Mount Blue/Tumbledown project will further protect four key mountain
trails, alpine resources and the scenic value of the Tumbledown Range. The
largest parcel -- 5,019 acres -- includes the southern slopes and most
popular access trails to Tumbledown, Jackson and Blueberry mountains.
>
> "This has been a multi-phase project that so far has protected or
conserved about 24,500 acres," Knowles said.
>
>
> Coosa
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:13:41 -0500
> From: "Bett Middleton" <mtnstream73@eufaula.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] mayonaise story
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <003901c46c53$b3909960$24ff2341@Middleton>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Felix, since the mayonnaise was in the refrigerator, I am assuming that it
> was open before the electricity went out. But, since it remained in the
> somewhat cool refrigerator for the 3 days that you were without
electricity,
> I would taste it and if it tasted alright I would eat it. That's just me.
> I tend to not pay much attention to all the "freshness" dates on food, or
> follow lots of recommendations. The recommendations always err waay on
the
> side of safety, probably to avoid the possibility of suits. I think its
> just terrible how much food is wasted in the country at the supermarket
> level. If milk is sour, I will pour it out, but if its just gone out of
> date and I can buy it from the store at a reduced cost, I'll buy it and go
> home and make pudding and other stuff to make use of it. I have eggs in
my
> fridge that have a June 1 sell date on them. Most people would have
thrown
> them out by now. I just boiled 2 for a salad and they were fine.
>
> That's just my two cents. You have to decide whether its worth that to
you.
> Swallowtail
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:27:25 -0400
> From: "Dorothy" <dotmike2@adelphia.net>
> Subject: [at-l] parking
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <00d401c46c55$9e2129d0$f3c3e844@dotmike2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Check with the local clubs, police, hostels or even the chambers of
commerce in the towns you go near. If you use a shuttle driver, sometimes
you can leave it at their houses. Places like D.O.C. have a parking lot you
can leave your car in Hanover for instance.
> Dot (D-Train)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:35:21 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] More on Maine's Trails
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <88c67a75b8b6442fad64b1cbf1275395.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> http://travelvideo.tv/news/more.php?id=2367_0_1_0_M
>
> Statistics from the Maine Office of Tourism indicate that day-hiking is
the sixth most popular activity of vacationers to the Pine Tree State, just
behind whale watching and shopping and ahead of antiquing and foliage
viewing.
>
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:31:25 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: jbryankramer@msn.com, thornel@attglobal.net
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <9.2e5fd8d6.2e2b10cd@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> You pathetic pond scum sucking roach! It's too bad that there's no pill
to
> cure meanness. Even if they did, I'm not sure they could EVER make enough
of
> it for you.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 7:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
> > Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of efficacy
and I
> > gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong. Tell me
how
> > many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes up?
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:39:25 -0400
> From: Chase Davidson <wb4pan@mindspring.com>
> Subject: [at-l] Hikers that practice Meditation?
> To: "at-l@backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <40F9B8AD.9010503@mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> HI Gang,
> I was wondering if there are other members here who practice
> meditation. I just found a new yahoo group
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Meditation_Banter
> If you are interested please lets not beat this subject to death here
> on ATL. Reply to the yahoo group instead. :-) ( sure like some of you
> are going to listen to me when you pay no attention to Ryan LOL)
>
> oommm
> chase
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:43:33 -0400
> From: Chase Davidson <wb4pan@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] parking
> To: "Richard H. Anderson" <randerson58@comcast.net>
> Cc: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <40F9B9A5.4020503@mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> RHA,
> A great way is to ask here about the section you are interested in. I
> just got 4 replies to my inquiry on a parking lot 600 miles from home!
> Also always check the ATC web site. The ATC keeps a listing of parking
> lots that have been vandalized recently.
>
> chase section hiker ready to hit the trail...........
>
> Richard H. Anderson wrote:
>
> > As a sectional hiker, where do I look to ascertain the availability of
> > parking for vehicles near the AT.
> >
> > RHA
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > at-l mailing list
> > at-l@backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:50:48 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] he started hiking the trail on March 25.
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <2fa58cbcdf6642c5abc5c31f50d7f0f2.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/rock/07162004/news/27319.htm
>
> A Hampstead man is slowly hiking his way north for seven months this
spring, summer and fall as he fulfills a longtime goal of hiking the
Appalachian Trail.
> <snip>
> Jeanine said her husband has wanted to do the trail "forever" and decided
it was time when he turned 60.
> <snip>
> Kinney's adventure can be followed by entering his trail name "Pipesmoke"
at www.trailjournals.com.
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 33
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:01:29 -0400
> From: "Marsha" <atrailhiker@adelphia.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] parking
> To: "Richard H. Anderson" <randerson58@comcast.net>,
> <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <008f01c46c5a$60b6b6a0$0202a8c0@marthaandmarsha>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hello Richard-
> Please list the areas that you are interested in. The range is too vast,
and
> listers here are situated on every part of the AT.
> StarLyte
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard H. Anderson" <randerson58@comcast.net>
> To: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 6:47 PM
> Subject: RE: [at-l] parking
>
>
> >
> > As a sectional hiker, where do I look to ascertain the availability of
> > parking for vehicles near the AT.
> >
> > RHA
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > at-l mailing list
> > at-l@backcountry.net
> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:08:01 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: <GoVolsKelly@aol.com>, <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOGEEJHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> What goes around comes around and so on. Politeness generates more of the
> same and so just unrelenting rude behavior. Try reading the message that
> generated that reply.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
>
>
> You pathetic pond scum sucking roach! It's too bad that there's no pill
> to cure meanness. Even if they did, I'm not sure they could EVER make
> enough of it for you.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 7:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
>
> Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of efficacy
> and I
> gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong. Tell
me
> how
> many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes up?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:14:02 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: jbryankramer@msn.com, thornel@attglobal.net
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <e4.531a1e72.2e2b1aca@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> My opinion is what it is. You are not a nice person. You've never given
me
> any reason to think otherwise.
>
> So there.
>
> Kelly
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:08:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > What goes around comes around and so on. Politeness generates more of
the
> > same and so just unrelenting rude behavior. Try reading the message that
> > generated that reply.
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 36
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:30:38 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Alpine Rose delayed again!
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <74dd6f88a8514df8ad7755a0989e5bc6.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
http://www.nj.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-12/109005511861770.xml
>
> ELDRED TWP. -- Township planning officials Thursday delayed for the fourth
time a vote on whether to recommend final approval for the proposed Alpine
Rose race course and country club near the Appalachian Trail.
>
> Chairman Philip Marano said the final plans that the planning commission
has been reviewing since March still are inadequate.
> <snip>
> The planning commission also postponed until August its recommendation on
whether the supervisors should consider the final plans for Alpine Rose
"substantially different" than the preliminary plans. If they do, they could
reject the final plans or treat them as a revised preliminary draft.
> <snip>
> Township Engineer Jack Jolly agreed with Ebert's statement that a
mechanical treatment plant would be more likely to malfunction and create an
odor problem.
>
> Jolly said he does not believe the change in treatment systems is
substantial, and planning commission Secretary Sharon Solt said three state
Department of Environmental Protection officials with whom she spoke agree.
>
> The final plans also include more deforestation to make room for an
additional stormwater detention basin.
> <snip>
> Jolly chided the Alpine Rose team for submitting plans with so many
problems.
> <snip>
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 37
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:26:33 -0400
> From: "Richard H. Anderson" <randerson58@comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] parking
> To: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <EOEJJGCHGBBCKIEFMAOFMEELDEAA.randerson58@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I am interested in parking in PA but also all sections of the AT; I will
> hike a section in PA this coming weekend near RT 30; a section in VA on
> Labor Day weekend and the White Mountains next year. It seems that there
is
> no central location for this information.
> RHA
>
>
>
> RHA,
> A great way is to ask here about the section you are interested in. I
> just got 4 replies to my inquiry on a parking lot 600 miles from home!
> Also always check the ATC web site. The ATC keeps a listing of parking
> lots that have been vandalized recently.
>
> chase section hiker ready to hit the trail...........
>
> Richard H. Anderson wrote:
>
> > As a sectional hiker, where do I look to ascertain the availability of
> > parking for vehicles near the AT.
> >
> > RHA
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 38
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:26:28 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: <GoVolsKelly@aol.com>, <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOEEEKHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Zounds! Cut to the bone! Try Midol I've heard it helps.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> My opinion is what it is. You are not a nice person. You've never
given
> me any reason to think otherwise.
>
> So there.
>
> Kelly
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:08:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
>
>
> What goes around comes around and so on. Politeness generates more of
> the same and so just unrelenting rude behavior. Try reading the message
that
> generated that reply.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 39
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:28:54 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: [at-l] Yogi in the News.
> To: AT-L@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1d6.265eeeda.2e2b1e46@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Here's an article about Yogi, Goof and Dewey. No zipcode required, so
check
> it out:
>
> The Montana Standard - Butte, Montana USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 40
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:38:32 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Saddleback expansion begins
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <4c04733fb02d47d780f2142b3d9d2b23.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/news/local/825697.shtml
>
> Four permits from the Land Use Regulatory Commission have been approved
for Saddleback in recent months, and projects have also been scrutinized by
14 "interveners" charged with oversight of the property that is crossed by
the Appalachian Trail. The groups include the National Park Service, Maine
Appalachian Trail Club, Appalachian Trail Conference, Maine Department of
Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, and the Natural Resources Council.
>
> "They look at environmental impacts as well as visual impact of the area
from the Appalachian Trail," Cannizzaro said.
>
>
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 41
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:33:47 EDT
> From: GoVolsKelly@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: jbryankramer@msn.com, thornel@attglobal.net
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <62.40d9b59a.2e2b1f6b@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Nah, don't need it. I have a gun, though. Wanna borrow it?
>
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > Zounds! Cut to the bone! Try Midol I've heard it helps.
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 42
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:35:58 -0400
> From: Jim Bullard <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Bush opens forest roads
> To: Bror8588@aol.com, lorac4491@linkamerica.net, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040717201953.0238c848@pop-server>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> At 08:17 AM 7/17/2004 -0400, Bror8588@aol.com wrote:
> >Another thought (some may balk at this). The various states issue
Hunting
> >and Fishing Licenses and the holders of those licenses have some clout
with
> >State governments through the clubs or groups to which they belong. What
> >if there
> >were Hiking Licenses? (What? You mean a license to walk in the woods?
Are
> >you crazy?).
>
> I proposed a hiking license for the High Peaks area of the Adirondacks
> about 10-11 years ago. Reasons? The High Peaks were/are suffering from
> overuse, abuse and lack of money for trail maintenance. My idea was to
> require a written test covering LNT and basic hiker safety for the initial
> license plus an annual renewal fee. The test could even be administered
> over the Internet for those who lived outside the area or state and wished
> to obtain their license prior to arrival on vacation. The money from all
> fees to be dedicated to trails. Anyone found on trails in the High Peaks
> area without a license would be fined at several times the cost of the
> license. Other areas of the Adirondack Park that are not suffering from
> overuse (and have fewer Rangers for enforcement) would not require the
> license. Hoped for outcome was that the High Peaks would see less abuse
and
> where it did occur the offenders would not be able to plead ignorance
(they
> passed the test, they are supposed to know), some hikers would be diverted
> to less used areas where the license was not required and there would be
> more money available for trail work. Also a database of licensed hikers
> email addresses would allow sending alerts about closed trails or other
> information that might affect hikes in the process of being planned. That
> wasn't the plan that the DEC adopted but I still think it was/is a good
one.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 43
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:38:12 -0400
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040717202756.0270fec0@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Sorry that I didn't express myself adequately for your understanding.
>
> I responded to your assertion that FDA no longer requires proof of
> efficacy. You reported that some book taught you that the FDA doesn't
> review clinical studies. Either the book or you apparently do not
> understand either the strengths or the shortcomings of scientific clinical
> studies. Apparently you feel that cussing and name calling will cover up
> your lack of understanding of these important, albeit subtle, issues.
>
> I can assure you that I never prescribed that particular agent. I can also
> assure you that I have prescribed other agents that experience proved to
be
> useless or harmful. As an adult, I understand that there are no guarantees
> in life. I offered you examples of agents in which many physicians have
> been "wrong", me included. I really don't find it all that difficult to
> accept error as an opportunity to learn how to avoid that error.
>
> Maybe, you will mature and gain such a talent. It would be very valuable
to
> a genius. Maybe you will post on a real world AT issue.
>
> OrangeBug
>
> At 06:40 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> >Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of efficacy and
I
> >gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong. Tell me
how
> >many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes up?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 44
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:46:10 -0400
> From: "Coosa Donaldson" <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Subject: [at-l] And at the "local" level
> To: "AT-L" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <7bf72bfa629b4892856bb5b656155307.lorac4491@linkamerica.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Please take the time to read this article. It speaks volumes.
>
> http://magic-city-news.com/article_1804.shtml
> snip
> Yes, MAGIC has been criticized because the people heard "economic"
development and were led to believe that the organization would try to
attract companies that would employ our terminated workers, and look for a
major retailor to locate in the area; and it hasn't accomplished much in
either of these directions, and instead has aligned itself with an
organization that is out to destroy our way of life.
> snip
> All MAGIC needs to do in order to gain the support of the people is
produce JOBS with living wages, and stop entertaining the preservationists
and recreationists at the expense of true economic development.
> snip
> If we do not want our area turned into a national/state playground or an
exclusive tourist community, this is not the time to be sympathetic to their
whining and pleas. There is still much work to be done, and this is only the
first step in what promises to be a lengthy battle.
>
>
> Does life imitate AT-L discussion???????? Scary.
>
> Coosa Donaldson
> < "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters,
> liberty; in all things, charity." >
> Casey&Crockett Donaldson
> Shop Local, Shop Often
> Blairsville, Georgia, USofA
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Dog daze of summer were made
> for Casey & Crockett.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 45
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:18:10 -0400
> From: "Bruce Calkins" <bcalkins@disaster-relief.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Kelly's comment (OT)
> To: "Steve Adams" <stephensadams@hotmail.com>, <GoVolsKelly@aol.com>
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <020401c46c66$7a33dde0$fe89fea9@brucespentium>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> And these are the scofflaws that we've elected to write the laws that
> protect out trails?
>
> Black Wolfe
>
>
>
> > > Kelly,
> > >
> > > Reference your post, dated 7-17-04, providing some of the odd
> legislation,
> > > particularly "Members of the state assembly cannot be ticketed for
> speeding
> > > while the state assembly is in session."
> >
> > In the District of Columbia, police cannot delay a U.S. Senator or U.S.
> > Representative who is on the way to cast a vote.
> >
> > One enterprising District Police Officer stopped, a Senator
> >
> > The court denied the Senator's request to have the tickets dismissed.
> >
> > Sort of an urban "Catch and Release" program.
> >
> > Steve
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 46
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:35:00 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "W F Thorneloe" <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOMEEOHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> I said that FDA allowed them to use surrogate markers rather than testing
> for actual efficacy for the disease being treated. Read the entire PBS
> website by that physician who apparently was involved in the NIH study
which
> found the problems with those drugs.
>
> You are the one who essentially claimed that this entire issue was
> fabricated by me.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: W F Thorneloe [mailto:thornel@attglobal.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 19:38
> > To: J Bryan Kramer
> > Cc: at-l
> > Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> > This?---}
> >
> >
> > Sorry that I didn't express myself adequately for your understanding.
> >
> > I responded to your assertion that FDA no longer requires proof of
> > efficacy. You reported that some book taught you that the FDA doesn't
> > review clinical studies. Either the book or you apparently do not
> > understand either the strengths or the shortcomings of scientific
> > clinical
> > studies. Apparently you feel that cussing and name calling will cover up
> > your lack of understanding of these important, albeit subtle, issues.
> >
> > I can assure you that I never prescribed that particular agent. I
> > can also
> > assure you that I have prescribed other agents that experience
> > proved to be
> > useless or harmful. As an adult, I understand that there are no
> > guarantees
> > in life. I offered you examples of agents in which many physicians have
> > been "wrong", me included. I really don't find it all that difficult to
> > accept error as an opportunity to learn how to avoid that error.
> >
> > Maybe, you will mature and gain such a talent. It would be very
> > valuable to
> > a genius. Maybe you will post on a real world AT issue.
> >
> > OrangeBug
> >
> > At 06:40 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > >Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of
> > efficacy and I
> > >gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong.
> > Tell me how
> > >many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes up?
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 47
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:03:31 -0400
> From: Jim Bullard <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> To: Coosa Donaldson <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>, at-l@backcountry.net,
> Bror8588@aol.com, J Bryan Kramer <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040717215738.02394bd0@pop-server>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> At 06:59 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, Coosa Donaldson wrote:
> >So if I'm not a leftist, I'm okay? Thanks, I think.
>
> I think this is a good time to remind folks of
> <http://www.politicalcompass.org/>. If you click on the "US Primaries"
link
> on the left you will discover that no surviving candidate for the
> presidency is on the left. We're only deciding how far to the right we
want
> our president to be. Now may we get back to hiking please?
>
> Saunterer
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 48
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:11:00 -0400
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040717220320.029dac30@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Perhaps the FDA under "Bush I" worked that way. You claimed this was a
> recent problem. You are wrong. The FDA site has the current policy in
plain
> English for general public, essentially unchanged since 1995.
>
> Yes. I think you are using the technique of the Big Lie: repeat garbage
> loudly and often enough that people think it must be true. Name calling as
> a means to defend your errors and to diminish those who attempt to correct
> you. Never alter the story, regardless of evidence. If absolutely
> necessary, blame the error on the opposition.
>
> And most importantly, ignore the fact that you have no knowledge of the
> fields of pharmacology and medicine.
>
> What a genius you must be.
>
>
>
>
>
> At 09:35 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> >I said that FDA allowed them to use surrogate markers rather than testing
> >for actual efficacy for the disease being treated. Read the entire PBS
> >website by that physician who apparently was involved in the NIH study
which
> >found the problems with those drugs.
> >
> >You are the one who essentially claimed that this entire issue was
> >fabricated by me.
> >
> >Bryan
> >
> > Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: W F Thorneloe [mailto:thornel@attglobal.net]
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 19:38
> > > To: J Bryan Kramer
> > > Cc: at-l
> > > Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> > > This?---}
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry that I didn't express myself adequately for your understanding.
> > >
> > > I responded to your assertion that FDA no longer requires proof of
> > > efficacy. You reported that some book taught you that the FDA doesn't
> > > review clinical studies. Either the book or you apparently do not
> > > understand either the strengths or the shortcomings of scientific
> > > clinical
> > > studies. Apparently you feel that cussing and name calling will cover
up
> > > your lack of understanding of these important, albeit subtle, issues.
> > >
> > > I can assure you that I never prescribed that particular agent. I
> > > can also
> > > assure you that I have prescribed other agents that experience
> > > proved to be
> > > useless or harmful. As an adult, I understand that there are no
> > > guarantees
> > > in life. I offered you examples of agents in which many physicians
have
> > > been "wrong", me included. I really don't find it all that difficult
to
> > > accept error as an opportunity to learn how to avoid that error.
> > >
> > > Maybe, you will mature and gain such a talent. It would be very
> > > valuable to
> > > a genius. Maybe you will post on a real world AT issue.
> > >
> > > OrangeBug
> > >
> > > At 06:40 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > > >Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of
> > > efficacy and I
> > > >gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong.
> > > Tell me how
> > > >many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them go toes
up?
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 49
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:19:49 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> To: "Jim Bullard" <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>, "Coosa Donaldson"
> <lorac4491@linkamerica.net>, <at-l@backcountry.net>,
> <Bror8588@aol.com>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOIEFAHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Ah So? Kerry is the most liberal senator and Edwards is number 4.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Bullard [mailto:jbullar1@twcny.rr.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 21:04
> > To: Coosa Donaldson; at-l@backcountry.net; Bror8588@aol.com; J Bryan
> > Kramer
> > Subject: Re: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> >
> >
> > At 06:59 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, Coosa Donaldson wrote:
> > >So if I'm not a leftist, I'm okay? Thanks, I think.
> >
> > I think this is a good time to remind folks of
> > <http://www.politicalcompass.org/>. If you click on the "US
> > Primaries" link
> > on the left you will discover that no surviving candidate for the
> > presidency is on the left. We're only deciding how far to the
> > right we want
> > our president to be. Now may we get back to hiking please?
> >
> > Saunterer
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 50
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:21:07 -0400
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> This?---}
> To: "W F Thorneloe" <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Cc: at-l <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOMEFAHIAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Now I see you din't even bother to read those references.
>
> Bryan
>
> Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
>
>
> >
> > Perhaps the FDA under "Bush I" worked that way. You claimed this was a
> > recent problem. You are wrong. The FDA site has the current
> > policy in plain
> > English for general public, essentially unchanged since 1995.
> >
> > Yes. I think you are using the technique of the Big Lie: repeat garbage
> > loudly and often enough that people think it must be true. Name
> > calling as
> > a means to defend your errors and to diminish those who attempt
> > to correct
> > you. Never alter the story, regardless of evidence. If absolutely
> > necessary, blame the error on the opposition.
> >
> > And most importantly, ignore the fact that you have no knowledge of the
> > fields of pharmacology and medicine.
> >
> > What a genius you must be.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:35 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > >I said that FDA allowed them to use surrogate markers rather than
testing
> > >for actual efficacy for the disease being treated. Read the entire PBS
> > >website by that physician who apparently was involved in the NIH
> > study which
> > >found the problems with those drugs.
> > >
> > >You are the one who essentially claimed that this entire issue was
> > >fabricated by me.
> > >
> > >Bryan
> > >
> > > Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: W F Thorneloe [mailto:thornel@attglobal.net]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 19:38
> > > > To: J Bryan Kramer
> > > > Cc: at-l
> > > > Subject: RE: [at-l] FantasyLand <OFF TOPIC> {Was: Did Any of You See
> > > > This?---}
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry that I didn't express myself adequately for your
understanding.
> > > >
> > > > I responded to your assertion that FDA no longer requires proof of
> > > > efficacy. You reported that some book taught you that the FDA
doesn't
> > > > review clinical studies. Either the book or you apparently do not
> > > > understand either the strengths or the shortcomings of scientific
> > > > clinical
> > > > studies. Apparently you feel that cussing and name calling
> > will cover up
> > > > your lack of understanding of these important, albeit subtle,
issues.
> > > >
> > > > I can assure you that I never prescribed that particular agent. I
> > > > can also
> > > > assure you that I have prescribed other agents that experience
> > > > proved to be
> > > > useless or harmful. As an adult, I understand that there are no
> > > > guarantees
> > > > in life. I offered you examples of agents in which many
> > physicians have
> > > > been "wrong", me included. I really don't find it all that
> > difficult to
> > > > accept error as an opportunity to learn how to avoid that error.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe, you will mature and gain such a talent. It would be very
> > > > valuable to
> > > > a genius. Maybe you will post on a real world AT issue.
> > > >
> > > > OrangeBug
> > > >
> > > > At 06:40 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > > > >Well you asked for a drug that FDA approved with no proof of
> > > > efficacy and I
> > > > >gave it to you. But now as usual you can't admit you were wrong.
> > > > Tell me how
> > > > >many patients did you prescribe that drug for? Any of them
> > go toes up?
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 51
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:25:26 -0400
> From: Jim Bullard <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> To: J Bryan Kramer <jbryankramer@msn.com>, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040717222219.022b3f28@pop-server>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> What part of "Now may we get back to hiking please?" (not to mention
Ryan's
> earlier request) did your exceptionally intelligent mind not understand?
>
> At 10:19 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> >Ah So? Kerry is the most liberal senator and Edwards is number 4.
> >
> >Bryan
> >
> > Lex et Libertas -- Semper Vigilo, Paratus, et Fidelis!
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Bullard [mailto:jbullar1@twcny.rr.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 21:04
> > > To: Coosa Donaldson; at-l@backcountry.net; Bror8588@aol.com; J Bryan
> > > Kramer
> > > Subject: Re: [at-l] AHS & what about . . . New Jersey?
> > >
> > >
> > > At 06:59 PM 7/17/2004 -0400, Coosa Donaldson wrote:
> > > >So if I'm not a leftist, I'm okay? Thanks, I think.
> > >
> > > I think this is a good time to remind folks of
> > > <http://www.politicalcompass.org/>. If you click on the "US
> > > Primaries" link
> > > on the left you will discover that no surviving candidate for the
> > > presidency is on the left. We're only deciding how far to the
> > > right we want
> > > our president to be. Now may we get back to hiking please?
> > >
> > > Saunterer
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 52
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:10:03 -0500
> From: Felix <AThiker@smithville.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] parking
> Cc: "At-L@Backcountry.net" <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <40F9F81B.80304@smithville.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Richard H. Anderson wrote:
>
> >I am interested in parking in PA but also all sections of the AT; I will
> >hike a section in PA this coming weekend near RT 30; a section in VA on
> >Labor Day weekend and the White Mountains next year. It seems that there
is
> >no central location for this information.
> >
>
>
> I'd say that here is as good a place as any. Info you'd get from other
> sources will possibly be dated. The stuff we can give ya will either be
> fairly current, or we'll tell you how current it ain't. so, ask
> away...if you want.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 53
> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:40:00 -0400
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: [at-l] FantasyLand Apology
> To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040718063758.025c7d28@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> That last message was supposed to go to sender only, and not to the list.
>
> Pharmacology of novel anti-arrhythmic drugs and FDA review procedures are
> not trail related. Neither are the name calling and histrionics.
>
> This began as a discussion of GI bleeds from analgesics, with a case
> occurring to a hiker who required assisted medical evacuation. Somehow,
> this became the fault of the Federal government, physicians, and other
> Nazi's who sustain impossible postures involving cranial-rectal inversion.
>
> What a great AT related discussion.
>
> <grumble>
>
> Bill....
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> at-l mailing list
> at-l@backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
> End of at-l Digest, Vol 15, Issue 21
> ************************************