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[at-l] Re: at-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
- Subject: [at-l] Re: at-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
- From: camojack at comcast.net (Jack)
- Date: Fri May 16 01:13:37 2003
- References: <200305110039.h4B0dAa45385@mailman.hack.net>
I know that AOL subscribers have had problems getting the list, but the last
digest I got was the 10th; also, when I tried to log in to verify my
settings, authentication failed...what's up?
-"Camo"
----- Original Message -----
From: <at-l-request@mailman.backcountry.net>
To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:39 PM
Subject: at-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
Send at-l mailing list submissions to
at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of at-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. AOL Orphans (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
2. Wet Year Southern AT (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
3. Re: Still no AT-L on AOL (Ryan K. Brooks)
4. dew ewe no? (Snodrog5@aol.com)
5. The Old Man of the Mountain - Another Perspective
(Snodrog5@aol.com)
6. Still no AT-L on AOL (Snodrog5@aol.com)
7. RE: AOL (Ga. Dawg)
8. Re: Water Treatment Survey in American Journal of Medicine
(Sloetoe)
9. Chlorine as water treatment. (Steve Adams)
10. (Guest Post) Water Treatment Survey in American Journal of
Medicine (Platypus)
11. Re: Water Treatment Survey in American Journal of Medicine
(W F Thorneloe)
12. Medical risks of wilderness hiking (W F Thorneloe)
13. RE: AOL (J Bryan Kramer)
14. Re: AOL Orphans (Steve Landis)
15. Re: AOL (Steve Landis)
16. Outta here (Papa Bear)
17. Re: AOL (Steve Landis)
18. Re: AOL Orphans (Steve Landis)
19. (no subject) (Steve Adams)
20. AOL Orphans (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
21. RE: AOL Orphans (Shane Steinkamp)
22. Re: Filtering water (Jim Bullard)
23. AOL Orphans (Snodrog5@aol.com)
24. RE: AOL Orphans (J Bryan Kramer)
25. RE: Still no AT-L on AOL (Shane Steinkamp)
26. (Guest Post) FLT (Mark Hudson)
27. Filtering water (Slyatpct@aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:12:48 EDT
From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: AT-L@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <182.1ab0997b.2bed3b90@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL. My first hint was when they
directed me to some foreign woman who was obviously in an eastern country to
try to explain what an e-mail list was and she couldn't understand it. Next
was receiving a form message for redoing my e-mail settings after describing
the problem to AOL. The problem had nothing to do with MY settings, so that
wasn't reassuring.
If what they say is true, AOL could be saving money by cutting off all
space-consuming list interactions on its computers. The spam still comes
through though. Or they could be short personnel for a follow through.
People
in departments about to be cut sometimes don't give a *&^% ^#@ about
complaints...
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:27:32 EDT
From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] Wet Year Southern AT
To: AT-L@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20.10d55d4a.2bed3f04@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Chattanooga River crested 6 feet over flood stage, the highest
level
in 4 decades. Recent spring storm systems have dumped over a foot of rain in
the last week.
They say the Pacific El Nino pattern is subsiding, but apparently it
has
managed to lock into a pattern of pumping out storms along the dividing line
of the subtropical jet and cooler air over the continent.
I won't guess how long the pattern will last or whether we will have a
wet, cool summer or not. Hopefully the summer jet shift will draw this storm
belt north and over Maine before it subsides. Death Valley is having an
extended desert flower blooming season because of cooler and wetter
conditions.
The springs along the AT should be just fine. I suppose hikers out
there for the duration would consider this a wet year as far as rain
hiking...
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:12:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Ryan K. Brooks" <ryan@hack.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] Still no AT-L on AOL
To: ARTCLOUTMN@aol.com
Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID:
<Pine.BSF.4.21.0305091412320.18921-100000@mailman.hack.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I just got off the phone with them- the ticket is supposedly finally being
worked on now. :-(
On Wed, 7 May 2003 ARTCLOUTMN@aol.com wrote:
> This is getting rediculus. I call customer service at AOL. The promised
I
> would be back receiving service with 2 hours. It has been way over 24
hours
> and no AT-L. I'm not a happy hiker;(
>
> Art
> _______________________________________________
> at-l mailing list
> at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 15:16:01 EDT
From: Snodrog5@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] dew ewe no?
To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <159.1f2b0c15.2bed5871@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Does anybody know the next maildrops for listers hikin' this year? Hopeful,
Liteshoe, Wench...etc.?
I'd like to know too Felix, I'll email the AT03 list. I've still got some
lucky rocks and Halloween candy that never made it into Mag's AT maildrops.
TJ < has left over 32 cent stamps, too
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:25:00 EDT
From: Snodrog5@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] The Old Man of the Mountain - Another Perspective
To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <127.2907869c.2bed689c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks for sharing this with us, Steve.
"Nanibosad, the night walker, whispered to him that night
when the caretakers were looking away,
the turnbuckles and chains and braces broke
the Old Man yawned, and smiled, and dove, headfirst, into the lake
ah, kadosmida,
he is saying,
wligonebi, the water feels good
the people need me"
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:26:48 EDT
From: Snodrog5@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] Still no AT-L on AOL
To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <1a3.147f8726.2bed6908@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What would really help is to get something recorded about this so that it
won't happen again the next time some AOLer with a grudge against at-l
reports Ryan.
TJ
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:39:49 -0400
From: "Ga. Dawg" <gadog430@charter.net>
Subject: RE: [at-l] AOL
To: "'athummingbird'" <athummingbird@hemc.net>, "'Tom Mantooth'"
<tomman@attbi.com>, "'at-l'" <AT-L@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <000501c3166b$26364b30$df30a942@youru10ixi0anw>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ted recently sold half of his AOL Time Warner stock.
Of course when he sold half, it was worth about one-tenth what it used
to be worth.
I grew up in Atlanta, and Ted is a legendary ladies man.
Dawg
-----Original Message-----
From: at-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net
[mailto:at-l-bounces@mailman.backcountry.net] On Behalf Of athummingbird
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 9:20 AM
To: Tom Mantooth; at-l
Subject: Re: [at-l] AOL
Tom made a comment..."Has anyone on the list saw the news in the past
few days about AOL. It said that AOL was going down and would going
bankrupt. This has something to do with Turner turning his back on them
and not providing them support. This may be the reason they are having
so many problems. Just a thought."
That may be a fact as seems Ted is spending most of his time here at
Lake
Burton (Clayton) with his young little French girlfriend. AOL also
just
had a big layoff. Maybe the girls there were getting too old for Teddy.
Hummingbird
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
_______________________________________________
at-l mailing list
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http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sloetoe <sloetoe@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [at-l] Water Treatment Survey in American Journal of
Medicine
To: Quoleldil <quoleldil@yahoo.com>, Tim Woodworth
<hiker_00@hotmail.com>, thornel@attglobal.net
Cc: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <20030509204540.85892.qmail@web20602.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Quoleldil <quoleldil@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "The American Journal of Medicine" <http://www.amjmed.org/>
> It does not appear to put its articles on line ...
> An abstract is available at Pub Med by searching for "boulware
> dr" or going to
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=12681456&dopt=Abstract
> A more complete abstract is available at:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TDC-488FKJ1-6&_co
verDate=03%2F31%2F2003&_alid=90914167&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=
5195&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5
=c02a8a62a6d3617a7709b1b334f461a9
<snip>
> The risk of diarrhea was greater among those who frequently
drank untreated water from streams or ponds (odds ratio [OR] =
7.7; 95% confidence interval [CI]: 2.7 to 23; P <0.0001),
whereas practicing "good hygiene" (defined as routine cleaning
of cooking utensils and cleaning hands after bowel movements)
was associated with a decreased risk (OR = 0.46; 95% CI: 0.22 to
0.97; P =0.04)
### Ouch! You know, I feel lots better discussing things with
empirically-derived evidence -- *any* evidence -- I'm not scared
by small n size or attenuated confidence intervals... nah! And
this cite certainly qualifies as empirical.... but somebody
screwed the pooch here. Elsewise, I need to go buy a boatload of
lottery tickets. Long story short: there is NO WAY that an odds
ratio of 7.7 can fly, without leaving a bunch of hikers on this
list dead or running off to the potty (or to the mailbox with
our renewal to Flagyl Monthly). Anybody know what went wrong?
Sloetoe
=====
Spatior! Nitor! Nitor! Tempero!
Pro Pondera Et Meliora.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:02:17 -0400
From: "Steve Adams" <stephensadams@hotmail.com>
Subject: [at-l] Chlorine as water treatment.
To: jbullar1@twcny.rr.com
Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <Law10-F125XrWF06DDg0000d360@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Saunterer,
Reference your post, dated 5-9-03, where you advised:
(1) "... I was told that a stream or river (flowing water) 'cleans itself
every 150 feet'."
(2) "(T)hese are assumptions (probably) based on not having gotten sick
from drinking from these sources."
(3) "Some of the variance in who gets sick may have to do with variance in
immune systems."
Re #1: I was told water becomes potable after spraying into the air, when
the sun is shining brightly through it, seven times. I have walked by seven
sprays, checking stream side for any obvious contaminant, then returned to
drink below the seventh spray. The distance conscious hiker may not "waste"
the time to do this. When the sun is obscured by overcast, this
"purification" doesn't work as well. And, walking by seven sprays on some
streams may be impractical.
I suspect we were given our respective information in the naive times before
all the harmful contaminants were discovered in, or introduced into, the
water.
I haven't gotten sick. Well, not that I know of. This leads to your second
point, above. I may have gotten sick and just didn't realize it.
Reference your third point, also above: Just because I didn't get sick
doesn't mean you won't become deathly ill.
I recall staying in Dakar, Senegal. Bottled water wasn't available. The
physician traveling with us tested all the drinking water where we were
staying. (This was in an Intercontinental Hotel, known for being most
accommodating to the North American digestive system. The hotel was new and
immaculate. This particular hotel was heavily French influenced; all the
food and drinks looked delectable.) He concluded, "If you have to drink
water, drink from the swimming pool (which had been heavily chlorinated).
You'll probably get sick, but it probably won't kill you." We also had to
watch what we ate.
I was working with a guy, who lived in Italy, in Saudi Arabia. I was
cautious about where and what I ate. For our first meal in that country, we
ate at a restaurant considered O.K. for the American gut. He had lettuce
and tomatoes, proclaiming he had eaten all over the world and had never
gotten sick. I declined. Later, that evening, he went to his room to go to
the bathroom. He didn't return. He was unconscious on the floor of his
bathroom. He remained unconscious for a couple of days (I'm a nice guy, I
put him in his bed), then gained and lost consciousness for a couple more
days. He didn't look well when he left a few days later.
It may look, smell, and taste good, but that's a poor test.
Steve
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:26:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Platypus <PlatyHiker@yahoo.com>
Subject: [at-l] (Guest Post) Water Treatment Survey in American
Journal of Medicine
To: AT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <200305092126.h49LQHd52731@mailman.hack.net>
* Message posted to AT-L from the National Scenic Trails Website
* by our guest Platypus <PlatyHiker@yahoo.com>.
* Please use <mailto:PlatyHiker@yahoo.com> to reply to the sender.
Sloetoe wrote:
### Ouch! You know, I feel lots better discussing things with
empirically-derived evidence -- *any* evidence -- I'm not scared
by small n size or attenuated confidence intervals... nah! And
this cite certainly qualifies as empirical.... but somebody
screwed the pooch here. Elsewise, I need to go buy a boatload of
lottery tickets. Long story short: there is NO WAY that an odds
ratio of 7.7 can fly, without leaving a bunch of hikers on this
list dead or running off to the potty (or to the mailbox with
our renewal to Flagyl Monthly). Anybody know what went wrong?
I decided to look up the definition of odds ratio:
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band25/b25-6.html
The way I read it, a 7.7 odds ratio means that among that "frequently drank
untreated water from
streams or ponds" there was a ratio of 77 people getting sick to 10 people
not getting sick. In
layman's terms, 88.5% (77/87) got sick. That's a lot higher than I would
expect, but certainly
possible. There's still a question of what exactly "frequently" means. And
questions of
what caused the sickness. (Some of the sick people may have gotten sick
from food, not water.)
However, it sure is striking to compare to the odds ratio of those
practicing good hygine. (I'm
also guessing that these people did not drink untreated water, but the
report is not absolutely
clear on this.) There the 0.46 odds ratio means that a ratio of 46 people
got sick to the 100
people that stayed healthy, meaning that 31.5% (46/146) people get sick.
This matches with
reports that I've read that say about 1/3 of people doing extended AT hikes
get sick at some
point.
I'd love to have more details on how the study defined the groups, but for
now, it seems to
justify the weight of some water treatment method.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:45:19 -0400
From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] Water Treatment Survey in American Journal of
Medicine
To: Sloetoe <sloetoe@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tim Woodworth <hiker_00@hotmail.com>, at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030509172049.0230b8d0@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
What went wrong was study design. Although described as a prospective
surveillance study, this is still basically a retrospective self reporting
response to a questionnaire by a select group of hikers. We don't know the
overlap of drinkers of untreated water among those with poor toilet
hygiene. We don't know the definitions of "frequent" users of untreated
water. We don't know the definition of diarrhea - bonifide frequent watery
stools versus a transient episode of loose bowel movements often associated
with overexertion.
There may be more information included in the full article. The number of
hikers having self reports of diarrhea shouldn't be terribly surprising to
anyone observing shared food, shelter and hygiene behavior of hikers. The
rare incidence of Lyme (again a self report) should be somewhat reassuring.
Of course, those 11 Lyme-ers may have been the only hikers sectioning
around Pennsylvania to Massachusetts.
The limitations of this study tell us that: 1) folks who are slack with
their water choices get sick frequently (quite statistically impressive);
2) folks who wash their hands get sick less often (not statistically
significant); and 3) over half of people who answer questionnaires have the
squirts (significant only to listers). Another 54 less obsessional hikers
conceal a large load of information.
OrangeBug
At 01:45 PM 5/9/03 -0700, Sloetoe wrote:
>...Long story short: there is NO WAY that an odds
>ratio of 7.7 can fly, without leaving a bunch of hikers on this
>list dead or running off to the potty (or to the mailbox with
>our renewal to Flagyl Monthly). Anybody know what went wrong?
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 18:01:44 -0400
From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
Subject: [at-l] Medical risks of wilderness hiking
To: "Dr. William J Martin" <wjmartin@uc.edu>
Cc: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030509174634.0230bec0@localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
I've been referred your article's abstract after interest expressed among
an e-list of AT hikers (AT-L). Frankly, I'm critical of the study design as
I understand it from the abstract, interpreting it more as a retrospective
self report of self selected hikers. I am impressed if this involved hikers
with at least 80 days in the woods or along the trail (it is fairly
suburban in places).
I am very keen to know of any overlap in the fastidious few with good
toilet hygiene and those with slack water gathering practices. I'm also
keen to know the definitions of diarrhea among this group. Episodic loose
stools associated with binge eating on town stops or over exertion
shouldn't be counted.
My expectation is that fecal oral contamination of food and hands is the
strongest risk factor among long distance hikers. I'd love to see a study
that sent blinded groups with alcohol gel versus lanolin lotion to be used
on a twice daily basis. I don't expect there is any money in such a truly
difficult prospective study.
Would you be able to email me a copy of your article? Congratulations on
grabbing the attention of Yahoo and many hikers.
Bill Thorneloe, MD
Smyrna, GA
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:30:15 -0400
From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [at-l] AOL
To: "athummingbird" <athummingbird@hemc.net>, "Tom Mantooth"
<tomman@attbi.com>, "at-l" <AT-L@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOMEBGDHAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I dislike Ted intensely but have to defend him on this. He was forced off
the board of the combined AOL/CNN. He never had anything to do with AOL
before The Communist News Networks was taken over by AOL. So I don't think
you can blame him for the current woes. AOL has always been a shady business
operation and their past crimes are just catching up to them. I doubt any
court will allow service to users to be interupted, worldcom maintained
service after collapsing you may recall.
Bryan
> Tom made a comment..."Has anyone on the list saw the news in the past few
> days about AOL. It said that AOL was going down and would going bankrupt.
> This has something to do with Turner turning his back on them and not
> providing them support. This may be the reason they are having so many
> problems. Just a
> thought."
>
> That may be a fact as seems Ted is spending most of his time here at Lake
> Burton (Clayton) with his young little French girlfriend. AOL also just
> had a big layoff. Maybe the girls there were getting too old for Teddy.
> Hummingbird
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
>
> _______________________________________________
> at-l mailing list
> at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:47:04 -0400
From: Steve Landis <s.landis@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: ATL <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <3EBC3DF8.8000509@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
RoksnRoots@aol.com wrote:
> Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL. My first hint was when
> they directed me to some foreign woman who was obviously in an eastern
> country to try to explain what an e-mail list was and she couldn't
> understand it. <snip>
Believe it or not this is an international list with "some foreign"
women and men hikers on it. I doubt that they appreciate being painted
with the broad brush of AOL incompetence that you have wielded here.
Your attempts at "explaining" things on this list are well documented.
I'm betting she understood what "an email list" (I'm sure you meant
mailing list) is. The only thing that is obvious is... well it's
obvious isn't it? What an incredible statement.
Steve
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:48:22 -0400
From: Steve Landis <s.landis@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] AOL
To: ATL <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <3EBC3E46.2050001@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Tom Mantooth wrote:
> Has anyone on the list saw the news in the past few days about AOL.
Here's some
http://tinyurl.com/beu1
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 21:00:27 -0400
From: "Papa Bear" <papabear.nyc@verizon.net>
Subject: [at-l] Outta here
To: "AT-List" <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <006901c3168f$8cb34880$6401a8c0@richard>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm outta here.
Tomorrow I get a bus then a Shuttle to Harpers Ferry. 10 days or so later I
get off the trail in Duncannon, PA. So it's north from the Potomac to the
Susquehanna.
Maybe when I get back, the AOL linkage will be working. :) Or maybe it will
be working and then break again :) :) (Sorry to make fun, but if you don't
laugh, then you'll cry!)
I hope to get lots of nice pictures (I guess of fog and rain as things look
now) and I'll write a trip report.
Regards
Pb
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 18:57:20 -0400
From: Steve Landis <landis@epix.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] AOL
To: ATL <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <3EBC3250.8070606@epix.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Here's some
http://tinyurl.com/beu1
Tom Mantooth wrote:
> Has anyone on the list saw the news in the past few days about AOL.
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:34:50 -0400
From: Steve Landis <landis@epix.net>
Subject: Re: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: ATL <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <3EBC3B1A.8000801@epix.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
RoksnRoots@aol.com wrote:
> Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL. My first hint was when
> they directed me to some foreign woman who was obviously in an eastern
> country to try to explain what an e-mail list was and she couldn't
> understand it.
Believe it or not this is an international list with "some foreign"
women and men hikers on it. I doubt that they appreciate being painted
with the broad brush of AOL incompetence that you have wielded here.
Your attempts at "explaining" things on this list are well documented.
I'm betting she understood what "an email list" (I'm sure you meant
mailing list) is. The only thing that is obvious is... well it's
obvious isn't it? What an incredible statement.
Steve
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: 9 May 2003 18:26:26 -0700
From: "Steve Adams" <stephensadams@hotmail.com>
Subject: [at-l] (no subject)
To: jbullar1@twcny.rr.com
Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <Law10-F14P4Ebgcy2me0000dd3d@hotmail.com>
Chlorine as water treatment.
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 21:26:26 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Saunterer,
Reference your post, dated 5-9-03, where you advised:
(1) "... I was told that a stream or river (flowing water) 'cleans itself
every 150 feet'."
(2) "(T)hese are assumptions (probably) based on not having gotten sick
from drinking from these sources."
(3) "Some of the variance in who gets sick may have to do with variance in
immune systems."
Re #1: I was told water becomes potable after spraying into the air, when
the sun is shining brightly through it, seven times. I have walked by seven
sprays, checking stream side for any obvious contaminant, then would return
to drink below the seventh spray. The distance conscious hiker may not
"waste" the time to do this. When the sun is obscured by overcast, this
"purification" process doesn't work as well. And, walking by seven sprays
on some streams would be impractical.
I suspect we were given our respective information in naive times, before
all the harmful contaminants were discovered in, or introduced into, the
water.
Re #2: I haven't gotten sick. Well, not that I know of. I may have gotten
sick but didn't realize it.
Re #3: Just because I didn't get sick doesn't mean you won't become deathly
ill.
I recall staying in Dakar, Senegal. Bottled water wasn't available. The
physician traveling with us tested all the drinking water where we were
staying. (This was in an Intercontinental Hotel, these hotels are known for
being most accommodating to the North American digestive system. The hotel
was new and immaculate. This particular hotel was heavily French
influenced; all the food and drinks looked delectable.) He concluded, "If
you have to drink water, drink from the swimming pool (which had been
heavily chlorinated). You'll probably get sick, but it probably won't kill
you." We also had to watch what we ate.
I worked with an American, who lived in Italy, in Saudi Arabia. I was
cautious about where and what I ate. For our first meal in that country, we
ate at a restaurant considered O.K. for the American gut. He had lettuce
and tomatoes, proclaiming he had eaten all over the world and had never
gotten sick. I declined. Later, that evening, he went to his room to go to
the bathroom. He didn't return. He was unconscious on the floor of his
bathroom. He remained unconscious for a couple of days (I'm a nice guy, I
put him in his bed), then gained and lost consciousness for a couple more
days. He didn't look well when he left a few days later.
It may look, smell, and taste good, but those are poor tests.
Steve
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 23:55:11 EDT
From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: AT-L@backcountry.net
Message-ID: <187.199046fe.2bedd21f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve Landis wrote:
"I doubt that they appreciate being painted with the broad brush of AOL
incompetence that you have wielded here."
I'll have to add them to the copyright bounty hunters chasing me for
the
quotes, Steve so conscientiously pointed out, I took from the Times.
The internet industry is well-known to contract cheap overseas
employees to handle electronic transactions because satellite connection can
be just as cheap from overseas as anywhere else. I'm sorry if that triggered
a politically correct reaction in Steve. He seems to have a lot of those
reactions with my posts. Not so many dealing with the substance of those
posts though. I'd be very surprised if some of those overseas telephone
service representatives were AT-L members. More likely, this is just another
way getting at somebody who takes the AT seriously. I'm wondering where this
level of sensitivity towards what members think is when it comes to Trail
matters and how advocacy persons are referred to...
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:01:41 -0500
From: "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
Subject: RE: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: <AT-L@backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<IDEMKMNHCOAAOJDBMFAMCEHDEJAA.shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL.
I simply cannot fathom why anyone still uses AOL... Being in the IT
industry, every IT person I know hates it. There is a very specific clause
in all of our contracts that says if you install AOL on any machine we sell
you, it voids all warranties except hardware warranties. The software is a
nightmare to remove...
Shane
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:29:37 -0400
From: "Jim Bullard" <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [at-l] Filtering water
To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <001701c316ef$d2c73010$6400a8c0@Jim>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
While it's true that the Trail is mostly above agricultural and industrial
sources of pollution there is still the airborne pollution. I'm told that
over half of Adirondack lakes are 'dead', unable to support any aquatic
life, due to acid rain and particulate fallout from the air. Our Attorney
General has sued several Midwest states that have been determined to be the
source of most of the pollutants creating the problem. I suspect that the
West wind deposits similarly on the AT ridge.
Sly Wrote
> My concern is that most of the water along the trail is
> contaminated by a variety of materials that cannot be removed
> except throught a carbon filter.
I find it hard to believe that "most" of the water along the trail is
contaminated. Afterall, much of it is naturally filtered springs and since
it's a ridge trail many, if not most, of the sources are above agriculture
and industrial use.
Sly
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:57:47 EDT
From: Snodrog5@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <105.2e2bf4e1.2bee514b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Steve quotes R&R:
<A HREF="http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l";>RoksnRoots at
aol.com</A> wrote:> Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL. My
first hint was when > they directed me to some foreign woman who was
obviously in an eastern > country to try to explain what an e-mail list was
and she couldn't > understand it.
"...some foreign woman who was obviously in an eastern country"? Yeah right,
no "foreign women" allowed in Florida, eh R&R? I don't think anyone here was
surprised to read a comment like that in a post by this person. Some
concepts, like AT advocacy and those of us who take it seriously, are
obviously well beyond R&R's ability to comprehend.
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:37:21 -0400
From: "J Bryan Kramer" <jbryankramer@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [at-l] AOL Orphans
To: "Steve Landis" <landis@epix.net>, "ATL"
<at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID: <OOELIHOJBILPLJJLCPLOEECADHAA.jbryankramer@msn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think he was referring to the now common practice of transferring support
services to India. I have no idea how common mailing lists are in India but
offhand I don't recall ever seeing an Indian national (not resident in the
west) on any list that I've ever been on so she might never have heard of
lists.
Some of these companies go to elaborate lengths to deceive the end users
about where the service people are located. They will adopt some US location
and claim that they are located there. I've heard that they can import
newspapers, weather reports and such so as to allow the service rep to toss
in mentions of what currently is happening in their bogus local US location.
This only works for companies that hire people with minimum accents of
course. In general I'd have to say that user satisfaction with these Indian
support companies is very low at least in all the reports that I've seen. Of
course the angry customer effect always comes into effect, that is satisfied
customers don't go online to say how happy they are but angry ones will tell
everyone they meet about their problems.
Bryan
> > Face it people, we've been ditched by AOL. My first hint was when
> > they directed me to some foreign woman who was obviously in an eastern
> > country to try to explain what an e-mail list was and she couldn't
> > understand it.
>
> Believe it or not this is an international list with "some foreign"
> women and men hikers on it. I doubt that they appreciate being painted
> with the broad brush of AOL incompetence that you have wielded here.
> Your attempts at "explaining" things on this list are well documented.
> I'm betting she understood what "an email list" (I'm sure you meant
> mailing list) is. The only thing that is obvious is... well it's
> obvious isn't it? What an incredible statement.
>
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:16:14 -0500
From: "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
Subject: RE: [at-l] Still no AT-L on AOL
To: <Snodrog5@aol.com>, <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
Message-ID:
<IDEMKMNHCOAAOJDBMFAMCEJCEJAA.shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> What would really help is to get something recorded about this so
> that it won't happen again the next time some AOLer with a grudge
> against at-l reports Ryan.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that this wasn't an accident at
all. Pushed from the dock, we were. Curious timing at that. But then, I
have a suspicious mind...
Shane
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:27:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Hudson <hudsom@us.ibm.com>
Subject: [at-l] (Guest Post) FLT
To: AT-L@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <200305101527.h4AFRHq18417@mailman.hack.net>
* Message posted to AT-L from the National Scenic Trails Website
* by our guest Mark Hudson <hudsom@us.ibm.com>.
* Please use <mailto:hudsom@us.ibm.com> to reply to the sender.
Hey gang! Hope evrybody's been playing nice since I left. Taking a rest day
here in Watkins Glen. The FLT has been quite a trip so far, country lanes,
woods roads, farming country. I've seen more wild turkeys than on the entire
AT, and I practically have to chase the deer out of the trail to get
through.
Just some observations:
Sloetoe would be proud because I'm holding my ziplocks together with duct
tape <g>
Sly would be proud because I came into Hornel with the food bag running on
fumes.
A good way to cover a four-day leg is to find out the "Grocery Store"
described in the guide only carries junk food. Between the junk and the
dregs of the food bag you put together a three day menu. You WILL make the
next town in three days.
(Molasses cookies for breakfast anyone? <g>)
A better way to make a four-day leg into three days it to hit easy trail,
and have an extra days worth of food to chow through. (Yes, I think I WILL
have 700 calories in Snickers today <g>)
When the recipe says "Sauce will thicken after standing for 3 to 5 minutes",
no hiker will ever see a thick sauce...
In 240 miles I've seen two trail maintainers, four turkey hunters, and one
trail runner. Yup, that's it...
Just short of halfway done. Don't know if I'll get to e-mail again... see
y'all when I get back!
skeeter
------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:34:08 EDT
From: Slyatpct@aol.com
Subject: [at-l] Filtering water
To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
Message-ID: <34.397f65a1.2bee8400@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>While it's true that the Trail is mostly above agricultural and industrial
sources of >pollution there is still the airborne pollution. I'm told that
over half of Adirondack >lakes are 'dead', unable to support any aquatic
life, due to acid rain and particulate >fallout from the air.
If it's not moving, I normally don't drink it, but I may boil it and use it
in meals. I can't recall any place on the AT where it's necessary to drink
pond water.
Sly
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