[at-l] YuckYuckYuck... was GARUCK LIST

[kahley7@ptd.net (kahley)]

At 02:16 PM 1/1/02 -0500, Slyatpct@aol.com wrote:

Oh goodie...new issues.  I like new issues.

>#### To take the pressure off the PARUCK?  How about stop advertising 
>outside the list and word of mouth?

Sly, we don't_advertise_anywhere.  If the ATC or ALDHA list it,
could it be because they see it as a resource for hikers?  The only
place I ever announce it is to AT-L, PCT-L, BP-L and the Woman's
List.  If you want the Y3Ruck to be a more private affair, make
it so. I do know that there are people who would prefer that we
not even talk about the Rucks in public.  That the Rucks be
small, by invitation only deals.  My feeling is that such an approach
is easy enough to pull off.  Just invite people privately to your house.
It's called a mini-Ruck. They are also good things!

  If the original purpose of helping to prep thrus is to be honored,
why should we limit it to AT-Lers?  Heck, AT-Lers are better prepped
just by what is posted here than the average Joe.  Three of the prospective
thrus that attended PaRuck 01 were_not_from this list and found out
about us thru other means.  I know that one of those people were still going
strong in CT(?) VT (?), the last time I heard word.  He drove
in from  Seattle cause he saw it on the net.  He and his wife had
a fine time and couldn't thank everyone enough for all that they
learned!  I think that's cool!

If you ask around, I don't hear many people who see the numbers
at The PaRuck as that much as a problem....(except in the supper line <grin>

Okay, there are a few people like me, who think 8 people is a crowd, but
speaking personally, I see that as my_problem_with crowds, not a Ruck
problem.  If enough people see it as a problem, it seems that it would be
sorta self correcting issue cause they just won't come?  Most people
seem to have a great time!

>OH, so WE decided to change the date?

Correction...
I said "OB, can you change the date on the GARUCK to MLK weekend?"
OB said "OK"
still....no coaxing required.


>I thought you had enough to do with "running" the PARUCK?

Oh....Sly...meeoooow!
Ya know, this is gonna get to be one of those deaths by a thousand parsings 
that
OB hates so much (sorry OB <g>) but you ask specific questions and I'll 
answer them.

>##### OK maybe I'm wrong, it won't be the last time, but why was the date 
>changed and didn't it have to do with the fact that it would allow listers 
>to attend both?

Errrr.....yes.  I thought I said that.


>#### The only "need" I have is trying to get first hand info on 
>thru-hiking the CDT, but I also have this urge to help other hikers on the 
>other trails if they are looking for it.  The venue was choosen not for 
>me, but for the fact that it has the communal kitchen and room, prices 
>that vary for anyones wallet, other amenities as previously noted and is 
>on the AT.   I'm still trying to figure how that changed in a few short 
>years in PA, as opposed to the original get together in HF.

I'm not sure what this means?  The Mansion doesn't have private rooms.
So, people who want private rooms commute from the motels on the
highway.  Folks can split the cost of a campsite to bring down costs orrrr
if they promise not to sleep, but to only nap, <g> they can join the 
parking lot
people.  Maybe I'm not getting your point here.

>###  First of all who is we?  You and who else?

Me and JohnO .....my buddy and co-conspiritor. ...sorry McO..I've outed you 
<BG>

>  I was one of those trying to push it to Bear's Den when there was a 
> chance we'd lose Ironmasters over the fiasco with Tom running off with 
> the hostels money.

Huh?  Well my bad memory is legend but I don't
remember us being in danger of losing the Mansion.
I do remember having to talk my sweet butt off to
convince the AYH folks that we had nothing to do
with that so they should drop the attitude cut us a break
and drop the day fee BS for Friday and Saturday.
Maybe that year was rougher than I remember but....

>The need for a bigger venue may still be there later if you continue to 
>advertise it to the hilt

Advertise where Sly?  From the beginning, the folks at
my local outfitters offered to promote it.  They wanted a
commercial presence there.  I turned them down.
Where is this advertising happening?

>and fill up everyones day with something to do.

Maybe you missed the posting of the schedule?
Other than slide shows in the evening, we have one
scheduled event in the morning  (a show and tell on
lightweight gear...nothing there for a prospective thru
is there?) and one scheduled event in the afternoon
(thru hikers and wannabees Q&A...totally irrelevant
to original intent I guess?)  I'm trying for more but
no one is volunteering.

There could possible be a stove contest.  And hopefully
Toey or someone will show and tell how to make a tin
can stove.  Tarp demo maybe. And Tucking on Sunday...that's a tradition!
That's it....a real dawn to dusk, every minute chockablock mess....NOT!

>No more sitting around, now you need a schedule and there's no time to 
>take a walk.

Now you are just blowing smoke Sly.  No one if forced to do anything.
Lotsa people do nothing but sit around.  The doors aren't locked
so anyone can take a walk anytime they want.  People hiked and
even tyvek-envelope-sledded last year.  Even I took a couple walks.
People get to choose what they want to do, nobody is forcing attendance
at anything!  This is BS.

Prospective thrus come, equipped with questions they'd like answered.
One way to try and insure that happens is to name a time and put the
people with the questions in a room with the people with the answers.
The other way that purpose happens is in every room of the Mansion,
in quiet (LOL well semi quiet) nooks and porches and on hikes...allll
weekend long. It's like a dozen little Harper's Ferry Rucks all happening
at the same time.  Pretty cool actually.

I'm skipping a lot of this cause it's not relevant.
If  you say you didn't tell me you wouldn't be coming back
if the Ruck was at the mansion  you have my most sincerest apology.
That's good news too!  You were missed last year.
And yes I smoke which is why I understood your desire that the
doors stay open.  and yes I sleep outdoors to avoid the snores.

>### It doesn't concern me Kahley, I don't think I'll be able to make it, 
>plus I already know the ropes.

Hmmmm....then maybe you should pass on what you've learned?
Each one...teach one?  Isn't that the whole idea?
Thruhikers and wannabees, Sly you qualify as both!

>  Perhaps you should let others know in a seperate post.  If you're open 
> to constructive critisism, why not have a critique form like the 
> Gathering instead of trying to please everyone yourself.


The post idea is a good idea.  I will do that now.  As to the feedback sheets,
we did that in '00.    We didn't do it last year...guess that was a failure 
of organization <sigh>
Come to the PaRuck, Sly  and bring feedback sheets! <G>

Comments from '00 (I'll skip the compliments and deal with the complaints 
and fixes)
We got back about 20 forms;, most of the
complaints had to do with the temps at the Mansion .
Some said too hot, some said too cold.
.......(can't fix that)
And:
1) the lack of TP
........(the fix...ordered more TP)

2)  the length of the auction.  Trust me...no one had a keener appreciation
of the fact that the auction went on too long than me, as one of the two people
standing there trying to speed it up!.  Especially since the other person was
my boss and friend who I had conned into doing it against his better 
judgement!!
........(the fix....dropped the auction even though lots of people enjoyed 
it and we have
had a half dozen requests to do it again for other very worthy causes)

3)  keep the chatters outta the kitchen while other people are trying to work
........(the fix...became really popular (NOT), trying to shoo people out 
of the kitchen
or put them to work)

4)  some people did nothing to help out while some people spent the whole
weekend in the kitchen
.........This is valid.  In '01, I tried to get things better organized, 
with different people
in charge of different meals and clean up, with little success.  We switched
to paper plates to cut down on the dishes.  That helped, but in any large 
group, there
are worker bees and there are the queens and the drones....whatareyagonnado?

Believe me, it was an eye opener when we had to practically beg a room full 
of people to get
2 or 3 volunteers to slice the ham and help get supper under way....VERY 
depressing.

With 80 people attending, if everyone set aside 15 minutes out of the 
weekend to help in
the kitchen, we'd have too much help.  People bring food, set it on the 
counter and expect that
others well see to it getting put away, or cooked or cleaned up later.  I 
don't get it........

the fix.....(This year, we have eliminated half of the group meals and 
hopefully,
people will clean up after themselves.)

5)  not enough room in the slide room.
.......the fix......last year we started having two showings.  If the 
sliders are willing,
we'll do that again.

6)  the Mansion wasn't clean enough.
.......we complained to management and management complained that the Rucksters
didn't fulfill the "clean the place up before you go clause".  Now 
what?  We had
a lister suggest a crew go down and clean it up before the Ruck.  That ball 
really
got rolling didn't it?

7)  this one really sums up the whole schedule/no schedule conflict.  We got
a form that said "....there was so much happening, so many great things going
on,  I wanted to see everything and do everything but I couldn't"

This wasn't meant as a criticism but there lies the rub for some people and it
seems as though you are one.  This person wanted to do all the things,  hear
all the presentations.....so she thought they had value (ie, they were a 
good thing)
but felt she couldn't because there were too many of these "good things" 
available.
Other people don't want anything formal.

I'd be really grateful if someone would tell me how to fix this.  How do 
you make
things better by eliminating some of the "godchilds" that people come there 
for?

Every time this issue comes up, I get e's saying they liked the 
presentations because
they learned a lot that way...more than they would if they just hung around 
downstairs.
Some people are shy, they don't like asking questions or they feel as 
though they
are intruding on other people's conversations if they "just butt in with a 
question"

I used to be that way...(quitcher laughing)  Really, I was a shy person 
till I hit my
30s so I really understand that some people want structure, find a semi-formal
presentation preferable to wandering around hoping to stumble onto people 
talking
about what they are interested in.  The scheduled activities all happen 
upstairs in one
room or outside.  No one has to attend if they have other pursuits that 
interest them more.
I don't see how that discomforts anyone.  I do hear that people enjoy them,
so as long as I can con people into volunteering to lead the talks and demos,
I'll continue to schedule them.  This is NOT a cut to the GARUCK.  Different
strokes for different Rucks!!!!  There is a difference in the way to get people
hooked up when you are talking about 20-30 as compared to 60-80.

........our attempt at a fix is no auction, no weddings.  Just hiking 
goodthings.
Hope it works.  And...even though the wedding was not my idea and I had really
nothing to do with it other than have a really really good time, I thought 
the wedding taught
newbees more about the concept of the "Trail Community" than anything else
could possible have done.

Thank you Sly for giving me a chance to get stuff off my chest and for the 
good
suggestion. I'll follow up on that now.