[at-l] Closing this file....

[daniel@circumtech.com (Daniel Berlinger)]

The single largest problem with list email is that the people involved have a very easy time imposing and projecting "tone" into the writing of the other person.

If everyone read everyone else's messages as if your best friend wrote them, and was speaking calmly to you, a lot of of this crap wouldn't crop up on the list.

Try it! (and please try and read this email that way, cause that is how I'm saying all this even though we don't know each other and I haven't met any of you yet.)

> This conversation arose out of an attempt on my part to restore a certain 
> level of tact and decorum to a list that seemed to be growing ever-more 
> contentious.

With all due respect, that's not your job. I suggest you write to Ryan off-list if you feel there is a problem with the list... besides it's almost 2002. Start your own web site, list etc. and say, do, and have done as you wish. It's so much easier than trying to get someone else to conform to your vision. Besides the fun of owning your own playground, you'll gain a greater appreciation what Ryan has accomplished with the at-l.

> NOT ONE person has come forward to offer support, defense, or vindication of Jim's 
> past behavior and postings on the list. Could it possibly be that I am not 
> the only one who finds Jim's tone condescending and unpleasant?

Maybe it's just that Jim doesn't need support, defense, or vindication? I certainly have never felt a need to defend either one of you guys. If other people are rushing to your defense maybe it's because it looks like you're getting pummeled? (Just an alternative view.)

> Well, I couldn't agree with 'em more, so instead of dignifying Jim's latest 
> letter with any sort of response, I'm going to take some of his advice.  In 
> addition to splenetic rage, and foul-mouthed suggestions that would shame 
> any well brought up nine-year old, he did offer one gem:  "You've got a 
> delete key just like everyone else.  Use it..."

And yet you didn't use it, and you "dignified his response" when you wrote back -- *again*. Flame wars don't exist in a vacuum. Each person must respond over and over. If one person stops, the cycle breaks. This is the second email I read where you suggest that this stop... of course, by writing, you perpetuate the cycle. How about not responding regardless of what Jim writes?

Either you care about what he says, or you care that other people here believe what he says. By responding you *amplify* the very element you wish Jim didn't have...an audience.

Want an issue to go away? Ignore it suggests I.

>     Magnificent suggestion, Jim.  As far as I'm concerned, and out of 
> deference to the hundreds of folks who are as sick of this as I am, I have 
> no further interest in pursuing this discussion, Jim.  I suggest you 
> consider taking the same position.

Again, Why did you respond? Writing to suggest that everyone else stop writing is... incongruous at best. No one likes being told to "shut up". That's how a message like that feels. Why? Because if I write to the list then I'm the "bad" one perpetuating the flame. And while I initially had addressed this to you, this one thing caused me to change my mind and send it to the list. Oh the irony!

>    Lastly, tho, I must respond to one of Jim's more childish remarks

See above. Ad infinitum.


>     Once again, thanks to Kahley for a well-written letter, and thanks to 
> the many folks who've written me off-list with their comments and support.

No question Kahley is brilliant.

But the rest is grand standing. I take you at your word, but why couldn't you just write back to your supporters and say thanks? I'll bet you did! Which makes this note self-congratulatory in a "look how many people think I'm right" kind of way. Do you really need to brag about this? Apparently... but it might have come off better if you didn't have that "nobody supported Jim" remark earlier in your message. Heh.
  
I'll understand if no one responds, I've almost suggested it above, and some clearly wish to move on... but I thought that this note might cause everyone to think about some of what has been done to advance "tact and decorum" on this list as we head into the new year.

d.