Re: [pct-l] Hello to list...and a few comments

Hi, Chris I am glad you're on the list. I've read about half your journal,
and really enjoyed it. I refer a lot to the Guidebook while I am doing it
so I haven't finished it. Thank you so much for making it available, and
congradualations on being one of the few to do a N to S thruhike last year

I hang my food, often just by the long strings of my foodbags, at least 3-4
feet off the ground out on a limb (away from the tree trunk).  usually in a
tree that is 20 feet from my camp so that if a bear does come by, I am not
right there.  I do this because I do not like rodent damage, and I hate
mice climbing over me while I sleep.  I have seen lots of bears.  I have
never had a bear get my food.  I  am generally out and away from trails.  I
think this is the best protection you can get from bears: get away from
areas that have bears habituated to human food.

I used to take food into the tent with me.  One night, a mouse climbed up
the side seam of the tent body walked along the ridge seam and would slide
down the tent body. <G>.  He did this a lot of the night, it was keeping me
awake. :(  I was relieved when he gave up.:)  The next morning there was a
large hole in the side of my tent. :( Thereafter I hung my food up.

One trip, I got up one morning and there was a large hole in my pack: it
went from the inside to one of my outside pockets.  I had forgotten and
left a small package of peanuts in the pocket, and the top was open
overnight. 

I still get mouse damage, but it is much less.  I absolutely hate having
mice get into my food, partly because I don't have anything to spare, but
also because the turds and urine contaminates food even if they do not eat
it.  Hanta virus is real possibility, and it is more dangerous than a bear
getting your food.

I now also hang up my ice ax(because of the wrist loop) and if possible my
boots , because  I have had these badly chewed as well.

In addition, marmots have chewed the shoulder and waist straps  and the
zippers on my Kelty during daylight hours.  So during the day, I hang my
pack as well.  Often, I will just put it in the crook of a tree.  For some
reason, marmots do not seem to climb trees at all, although
characteristically they perch on and climb rocks.

Sincerely,
Goforth 

Hi Joanne:  

Thanks for the kind words about our website.  It makes all the effort to keep it going seem worthwhile knowing someone's out there enjoying it.

I wholeheartedly agree with all your comments about rodents, marmots, etc.  I have had all the same problems.  When I was a wilderness ranger and had to carry a shovel into the backcountry and camp at popular, high-use areas, I had marmots try to drag the shovel off due to the salt on the handle.  I've also had my pack chewed on by marmots when I've left it behind on summit hikes.  One strategy I adopt is to try to hit offending animals with rocks, my version of human aversion therapy that some wildlife types use with species like the California Condors to try to make them afraid of people, like they're supposed to be.

We did get rodent damage one night on the PCT, when we left our food in the vestibule of the tent, with part of the foodbag sticking out from under it.  We never had any problem with the food in the tent or in our double bivy.  Often, I would put the food inside my sleeping bag at the foot.  Otherwise, I would put the food inside my sleeping bag stuff sack and then inside my pack and I would securely tie off the top of the backpack.  Perhaps all these layers of stinky fabric disguised the scent enough that the rodents never thought to chew their way in?  Aside from this one incident, we had no other problems, except for in September in Washington, when the mice seemed to get really active whenever we camped in a previously-used site.  They never got into anything, just ran around all night making noise.  The deer were much more annoying though, snuffling around our tarp looking for salt deposits.

My comments about food protection were really aimed at the bear problem.  I feel strongly that bears can easily overcome their natural fear of humans in order to pluck food out of a tree, but that it is much more difficult for them to come very near actual people to try to steal food.  Obviously, there are exceptionally habituated bears who are the exception.  Of course all bets are off in griz country.

Like you, I see bears all the time in the backcountry, though I've never had one in camp at the night that I know of.  Perhaps all this exposure has made me a little more comfortable about their presence around us, and a little less paranoid.  Virtually every bear I've ever seen (close to 50 maybe) has bolted at first sight, as they should.

Thanks for your comments.

Chris.


Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:41:07 EST
From: "The Weathercarrot" <weathercarrot@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [pct-l] More on bears

Saw a bear while hiking out of Belden last summer. I assumed it was no 
big deal. How common/uncommon are they through there?

wc

Whether they are common or uncommon, I'm not sure.  I don't recall seeing any.  In any event, I think your assumption that they're no big deal (outside of the southern to central Sierra) is correct.


a little caveat: I haven't done the high sierra in early season, so I
don't know how much axe competence is needed to safely traverse the PCT.

IMHO, basic competence is a really good idea, though many without actual experience have done it.  My feeling is that so many of the sketchy traverses in a big snow year are across smallish snowfields where if you're not fairly competent, you won't have time to stop before you hit the rocks, which may or may not hurt too much.  The big Sierra pass traverses tend to have more run-out in a big snow year, though a few of the passes also have cliff bands that you must traverse above (I think Jardine does a reasonably good -- if conservative -- job of describing the Sierra passes).  If you insist upon travelling without ice axe skills on a thru-hike, you can at least improve your chances of avoiding injury by travelling when the surface of the snow is melted somewhat (by 9-10 a.m.), giving you bigger steps and better stopping conditions, though some avalanche assessment skills might be useful depending on how early you're going through if you adopt this approach.  It seemed like a lot of the ease or difficulty of traversing the big passes without crampons depended upon what time of day we hit them.

Well, the crampons and ski pole idea may work under certain condition.  If
anything goes wrong, then you could get into a major pickle.

The trouble with Crampons is they really need a major ,heavyweight ,
inflexible, boot, one that is not very comfortable on the trail.  If you
are trying to save weight or walking a trail, then you are likely to have a
fairly lightweight, flexible boot.  A number of people have lost their
lives when their crampons loosened on icey slopes, and they were not able
to resecure them without slipping or accidently put one unshod foot
down,etc.  

If it was a choice between choosing a set of crampons or an ice ax, I would
choose the ice ax. Mostly because the ice ax is not as likely to create a
set of conditions where you get strung out on something you can't handle
and it may be too late to turn back. Have you ever backed down an icey
slope
with 6 point crampons, and poles? Do you know how long your knees and
ankles hold
up going down faceout on a steep icey slope when your body is new to
crampons? 

The ice ax is your only back up if you do fall.  I think that the "do not
fall" philosophy for climbers is a good one.  It especially teaches
climbing students precision, and awareness in their foot work, and ice ax
placement, and attention to detail, focus, and the importance of self
evaluation.  But sooner or later, everyone falls, otherwise why know self
arrest techniques.  The "no falls" philosophy allows you to limit your
exposure to injury, it does not elimiate the possibility of falling.
The premise of "no falls" for an inexperienced person, or one that does not
have a GREAT DEAL of climbing experience is unrealistic. Even using
crampons for an experienced person can be dicey if they have not used them
recently,                   if  the snow is very uneven, or there are
factors contributing to balance problems (like a
sinus, or ear infection, white-out,etc.), or the snow collapses underneath
you. "catching" a crampon and slipping is very easy, even with six point
crampons.                       The next time you see a mountaineer with
gaitors on, check out his gaitors and you will see
whether or not he uses crampons very much.

I had some success with an ice axe in the uphill (self-belay) hand and a leashed telescoping ski pole in the downhill hand for stability.  I was prepared to let go of the ski pole to affect a two-handed self-arrest if necessary, but it never came to that.  Even in a big snow year, I spent no more than one-half hour wishing I had crampons, and only then because I was anxious to be travelling early in the morning.  I agree with the basic sentiment that if you aren't competent with an ice axe, you shouldn't use crampons as compensation.  You can successfully practice no-fall with good kick-stepping and self-belay technique alone


Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:14:51 EST
From: Slyinmd@aol.com
Subject: [pct-l] Water Alerts

Are the water sources listed in the PCT Data Book reliable?  Better still, are there any listed, that aren't reliable? 

One source that has me concerned is at Cross Highway 78, San Felipe Creek, which is listed, "maybe comtaminated" and happens to be in the middle of two 20+ mile waterless spans.  That's not very encouraging,  Does anyone have any info on this source?

We found the data book info on water to be reliable, but conservative, meaning there was much more water than that listed.  Granted, '98 was a wet year, so don't count on water not listed in a dry year.  The one spot we gambled on more water when there was none was from Cajon Pass to Acorn Trail...absolutely dry 25 or so miles even in a wet year.  Other "take them seriously" alerts:  Fuller Ridge, San Felipe Traverse, Hat Creek Rim, and Crater Lake to Thielsen.  In '97 I filtered San Felipe Creek water without incident.  It didn't seem that disgusting. (You could take the bus to town from there if it looks really bad).

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:20:55 -0800
From: reynolds@ilan.com
Subject: Re: [pct-l] Re: Ice Axe Practice

Re: Ice Axe vs Ski Poles
Your arguement is well taken. The crampons He recommended work with soft
boots. However, what bothered me is: Where do you carry the axe when using
poles. Experts in the outdoor forum of compuserve cautioned me "Never put
on crampons without an axe".

My experience last summer was ski poles are wonderful walking across soft
snow. You can spread your weight and avoid dangerous breakthroughs.
Jonathan Breen's journal indicates why crampons work. He was able to
traverse slopes in the morning walking over the crust.

We hiked with Jonathan, and he preferred early starts, which was why he really had to use crampons.  Our assessment of the avalanche danger led us to the conclusion we could safely traverse passes later in the day and therefore, never needed crampons.  Jonathan would stop in the afternoon before climbing passes and we'd pass him.  The next morning about the time we were putting on our packs, here would come Jonathan and he'd pass us.  He said that even with crampons he was glad to have our big, refrozen steps from the previous afternoon to climb in.  It can be done many different ways.  There isn't a single right approach, but there are several bad ideas:  crampons without ice axes being one of them.


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