[pct-l] A Conversation with David Horton (very long)

[rellinwood at worldnet.att.net (Robert Ellinwood)]

Dr. David Horton, Professor of Health Sciences and Kinesiology at 
Liberty University, ran the PCT this summer - with support - in 66 days, 
7 hrs, 16 minutes.  Previously, he has won over 40 ultra races, setting 
records for the AT(1991), and the Long Trail (1999), running the 
Tuscarora Trail (2002),and coming in 3rd in the Trans America Cross 
Country Race (1995).  He is one of only 7 runners to ever finish the 
grueling Barkley 100 Race in Tennessee.  Well known as an organizer-
creator of ultra races, his Lynchburg Ultra Series is made up of the 
Holiday Lake 50K, Promise Land 50K, and the Mountain Masochist 
Trail Run 50 Miler.   The "Horton Slam" is made up of the previous 
races, plus the Hellgate 100K. Together they are regarded among the 
very best races in the country.  Here he shares some of his thoughts 
about his PCT run this summer.

Dr Bob:
I know you didn't consider yourself an expert on the PCT when you 
started, but what surprised you the most about the trail as you ran it?

DH:
Compared to any trail on the East coast, it was unbelievably quiet on 
the PCT.  I heard very few birds, squirrels, any kind of noises.  On 
many mornings, if someone was running with me, I would tell them to 
stop and listen.  Then after a few moments of silence, they would say, 
I didn't hear anything, and I would say that's exactly the point.  It 
was deadly silent on most mornings, and it didn't change much later 
in the day either.  

I thought that I would like the lava fields, but I didn't.  They were 
tough to run on and I fell a couple of times, which I don't recommend.  
The desert also surprised me.  I thought that it would be bigger.  The 
actual portion of the Mojave Desert that the PCT crosses is small.  I 
was also surprised at the number of times that I was going West or 
East or South on the PCT.  It seemed like it should go North a whole 
lot more than it did.  Speaking of changing directions, I never realized 
how much I would like switchbacks either.  On the AT you feel like you 
are getting somewhere, since you are covering 14 states.  On the PCT 
you think that you are NEVER going to get out of California, and 
mentally this makes it much more difficult.  

However, the thing that surprised me the most about the PCT was how 
poorly it was marked.  I didn't expect to see it marked like the 
Appalachian Trail where you have a marker within sight in most 
situations, but I did expect to see markers at trail intersections.  In 
some cases there were some, but in many cases there were not.  This 
needs to be improved and I've made a contribution to PCTA to help 
with that.

Dr Bob:
Montrail was one of your sponsors.  What shoes specifically did you 
use and how about the finances... were you totally funded?

DH:
The entire PCT adventure cost me about $12,000.   75% of that came 
out of my own pocket.  Montrail and Patagonia furnished me with shoes 
and clothing.  Nathan Pack Co. furnished me with a pack to run with. 
Golite furnished me with a pack to use in the Sierras, as well as a tent 
to use.  I used 6 pairs of Montrail Hardrocks and 1 pair of Montrail 
Leona Divide.  

Dr Bob:
Brian Robinson joined you in the snowbound Sierra.  Did that help 
you a lot?

DH:
Brian went with me from Kennedy Meadows to Sonora Pass, a 
distance of 315 miles and a total time of 11 days.  There is NO WAY 
that I would have made it without his help.  I really do mean that.  He 
taught me how to cross streams and how to stay on course in snow 
covered areas.  We went miles and miles without ever seeing the trail 
because it was covered with snow.  His knowledge of the high Sierra 
and map skills are tremendous.  He also taught me much about carrying 
a pack and camping skills, as I had never gone any distance with a 
regular pack and done much camping.  His demeanor was also very good, 
as he didn't let things upset him, and maintained an even keel all of 
the time.  He was very adept at walking on suncups.  I was horrible 
initially, and just bad later.  I felt in awe of his skills while he was
with 
me.  I felt that he should be running the PCT and not me.  He is a 
tremendous athlete and an exceptional person whom I have the utmost 
respect for.  

Dr Bob:
You have said that ultra running is a very selfish sport.  What do you 
think others got out of your run?

DH:
I do think that ultra running is a selfish sport.  In any ultra race or 
adventure all of the focus is on trying to help the runner/runners 
achieve their goal.  I do think and KNOW that others enjoyed helping 
me achieve my dream.  I had many people who were vital to the 
successful completion of my dream.  I know that all of the people that 
helped me were thrilled with their experience and would not trade it 
for anything.  

It seemed as though the majority of the hikers that I met knew about 
what I was doing.  Since coming back to civilization, I have had 
innumerable people whom I don't know indicate that they kept up with 
me all summer long.    I heard from a runner in Italy who said that he 
followed my progress and that it motivated him to train and work harder.  

Dr Bob:
Did you get any negative reaction condemning this sort of trail record 
attempt?  

DH:
I don't remember ever receiving any negative feedback about what 
I was doing from anyone, before, during, or after the PCT adventure.  

Dr Bob:
66 days at almost 2 marathons a day with great elevation gain... how 
did you fuel your body for that sustained effort?

DH:
In a normal day I consumed somewhere around 6,000 to 7,000 calories.  
When possible, I would eat 2 to 3 pints of ice cream a day, drink 2 or 
3 cans of Ensure Plus, eat 10 to 12 candy bars a day, and other meals.  
I had to force myself to consume calories many times when I had no 
desire to eat anything.  From the start to the finish, I only lost 8 lbs.  
However, in the high Sierra, I think that I was down 10 or 12 lbs.  

It didn't really matter what the support crew brought in as long as 
there was lots of it, and preferably hot and immediately ready to eat 
as soon as I finished.  I always highly suggested that they bring ice 
cream as well.  Most mornings I consumed a very large bowl of oatmeal, 
highly seasoned with lots of maple syrup.  I would usually chase that 
with 2 cans of Ensure Plus.  

Dr Bob:
What did you do about salt/electrolyte replacement?  Any particular 
products used?

DH:
The only time that I was concerned with salt/electrolyte replacement 
was during the first 700 miles and some at the end of the trip.  During 
those particular times I took Succeed Electrolyte tablets or tried to 
consume foods that were higher in salt content.  

Dr Bob:
Talk about your balance between actual running and fast walking.   I 
met a PCT hiker last summer who always trotted on the downhills with 
his pack.  Wouldn't running downhill put a huge strain on the knees?  
Any bloody falls?

DH:
My basic strategy in setting a record on the PCT was a combination of 
running the down hills, walking the uphills, and a mixture of the two on 
flat ground.  Running downhill does exert much more impact force on 
all of the body.  My knees hurt a lot for the last 500 or 600 miles and I 
am sure that it was the result of running too much, too long, on too 
many of the downhills.  I fell innumerable times in the high Sierra in the 
snow.  If I didn't get significant blood every day, I was very surprised.  
The backs of my calves were cut to pieces by the post-holing, as well 
as just falling in the snow.  I thought that I would have permanent 
scars because I was cut up so badly.  Later, I didn't fall as much.  I 
had one pretty bad fall in Oregon near Three Sisters, where I badly 
bruised a couple of ribs.  I also fell three times on the last day, with 
the last fall doing a face plant in rocks.  

Dr Bob:
You have mentioned often getting so little sleep at night, once hitting 
the hay at 2 a.m. and rising at 5 a.m., yet cranking out - on average - 
13.5 hr days and 40 mpd.  I'm not sure I understand how you kept going, 
didn't start hallucinating, or have more accidents as a result.  

DH:
Many of my days were very long, especially the four day stretch from 
Snoqualmie Pass to Rainy Pass.  My average night of sleep was about 
5 1/2 hours.  I would have liked to have more, but it just wasn't possible.

The last three weeks, I was getting up around 3 am on most mornings, 
and going to bed at 9 or 10 pm each night.  I never had any 
hallucinations, but there were mornings when I was extremely drowsy 
and sleepy.   But it didn't matter...  I had to keep going.  

Dr Bob:
Granted, long-distance backpacking and ultra running are different, 
but what would you say to PCT hikers about how to achieve their 
specific goal?  How first to prepare mentally or physically, and then 
to persevere?  

DH:
To be successful in achieving any goal, I think that you need to train 
as specifically as possible and prepare as much as possible.  A person 
can be much more successful if they talk to someone who has 
completed what they are attempting to complete.  I also think that it 
is important to announce to the world and everyone that you know 
that you are planning a big adventure.  This puts the pressure on you 
to train for the adventure and to complete the adventure.  It also 
makes it much more difficult to stop during the adventure. 

If you are going to hike with a pack, you should train with a pack and, 
if possible, on the type of terrain that you will be hiking on.  Training 
using a heavier pack might be of value, although I think that using a 
weight similar to what you are going to use and then hiking farther 
would be of more value.  I believe that one cannot really get totally in 
shape for any adventure in advance, especially if it is long.  You just 
get in the best shape that you can and then you REALLY get in shape 
after a week or two on the trail.  Most folks cannot intensely train 
10-12 hours a day and cover 20-plus miles for weeks before they 
actually start their adventure.

Dr Bob: 
How about persevering when things aren't going easily... when one 
gets "down" ? 

DH: 
I think that finishing is a habit.  Therefore, I believe that you should 
always try to accomplish what you set out to do in training, as well as 
in any kind of actual event.  Success can become a habit, but quitting 
can also become a habit.  I've been known to tell my students at certain 
critical moments in races, "Now we'll find out what you're made of."  
However, there are times when you SHOULD stop and turn around.  
At what price should one achieve this particular goal? Keep making 
progress if you possibly can, but remember - clich?s perhaps - this too 
shall pass, the sun will come up,  life goes on,  and the world doesn't 
revolve around us achieving our specific goal.   

Dr Bob:
Speaking of preparation, do you agree with "No pain, no gain?"

DH:
No, I don't.  But I do agree with the adage, "No discomfort, no gain."  
Pain is an indication that you are pushing your body beyond its normal 
limits.  There is ALWAYS a certain level of discomfort that accompanies 
a hard physical effort.  What everyone has to learn in accomplishing 
something difficult is the difference between pain and discomfort.  
In other words, every person has to determine what is appropriate 
and what is inappropriate with any kind of physical discomfort.  

Dr Bob:
Did you stretch before... during... after each day on the PCT?  
Or not at all?

DH:
I stretched very little during training and I stretched even less while 
doing the PCT.  When I was able to take a bath (seldom) I stretched 
my hamstrings.  I didn't stretch my calves or Achilles tendon nor have 
I ever had plantar fascitis.  I think that everyone has to learn the 
difference between what is significant and insignificant pain/
discomfort.  When a particular  problem arises, it's important for the 
individual to know what to do to alleviate the problem and not let it 
progress into something more severe.  How do you learn this? 
Regretfully, through trial and error.  

Dr Bob:
At age 55 and approaching 100,000 miles in your personal running, 
what can you say to the average hiker about self-discipline in training?  
What helps you - and your students - keep at it, when a lot us wish... 
but don't follow through?

DH:
I think that it is more difficult for a hiker to stay fit year round than 
it is for a runner.  With running, you can do it anywhere, any place, at 
anytime.  A hiker needs, wants, to have a trail to hike on.  I really don't 
know why some hike, run, swim, bike, whatever on a regular basis, 
while others stop.  Personally I think that it deals a lot with addiction.  
I do it - and many others who train on a regular basis do it - because 
they feel that they have to.  I can't NOT run.    I HAVE to run.  I really 
think that I am blessed with the ability to run, a body that can take 
running, and a deep desire to run.  I am addicted to it and feel fat, 
out of shape, and horrible if I don't run.  

Dr Bob:    
Some folks believe you ultra runners move just too fast to really enjoy 
a trail.   Take a look at the Data Book and your notes and tell me about 
10 places or moments of transcendent beauty that knocked your 
socks off.  

DH: 
Yes, I hear that a lot... that I go so fast that I can't enjoy the trail.  
 Not true.   I can see just as much averaging 3 or 3 1/2 miles per hour 
as a hiker can going 2 or 2 1/2 miles per hour.  I am not really going so 
fast that I can't enjoy the scenery and what's around me.  Only 
occasionally was I was running 4 to 4 ? mph.   The good thing about 
going faster is that I get more good views each day and I get through 
the so-called "ugly areas" quicker as well.  Here are some of the 
special places that I thought were beautiful or meaningful.

1.  Early in the second day, JB Benna and I were running high up on a 
ridge overlooking the Anza-Borrego Desert.  It was very pretty and 
you could see for miles and miles with the desert floor thousands of 
feet below.
2.  San Gorgonio Wilderness - after a 6,000 ft descent from the San 
Jacintos and a 6,000 ft climb back into the high mountains, I reached 
my crew as they were camped in a huge open pine forest with the theme 
from Chariots of Fire blaring through the trees.  This was the first 
real special moment in my PCT adventure.
3.  Kennedy Meadows Campground - It wasn't that the setting was so 
beautiful, it was the fact that I had completed 700 miles of the PCT 
and was now ready to push on into the high Sierra that made this so 
special.  There were 30 to 40 PCT thru-hikers camped out there.  Just 
as I was, they were anticipating what was coming up and reflecting on 
what they had been through.  They, too, knew that a huge challenge 
lay ahead.  
4.  The high Sierra - There were so many spectacular views in this 
section that I almost became numb to the views.  With all of the 
melting snow, the streams were roaring and waterfalls were abundant.  
Many of the lakes were still covered with ice.   It was wild, threatening, 
but incredibly beautiful.
5.  Crater Lake - The one day that I felt most humble, realizing that I 
was so blessed and that I was achieving my goal, was the day that I 
came up to the edge of Crater Lake.  Looking out over the lake, as the 
sun was rising, was so special.  I admit I called everyone that I could 
as I was going around the lake, letting them know how blessed I felt.  
In hindsight, this was probably the most special time that I had on the 
PCT.  
6. Three Sisters Mtns., Oregon - Wildflowers were abloom everywhere.  
It was a weekend and there were many hikers enjoying the scenery, as 
I was.  I saw more thru-hikers that day than on any other day of the 
entire trip.  I ran by myself for most of the day, covered over 50 miles, 
and felt tough, until I tripped and bruised two or three ribs badly.  	
We had good food, lodging, and fellowship that evening.  It was a very 
special day.
7.  Goat Rocks Wilderness - A great friend of mine, Scott Jurek, and 
I covered this unique wilderness area.  We didn't have a camera or 
anyone meeting us in this section.  The trail hugged the ridge for 
several miles.  One step to the left or right and you would have plunged 
a couple of thousand feet down.  
8.  Crystal Mtn. - The PCT stays on a ridge for many miles, right above 
Crystal Mtn.  For much of the day you could look out and think that 
you could almost touch Mt. Rainier.  It was so clear, so beautiful, and 
so big that it made you feel so small.  
9.  Trinity Campground to Rainy Pass - This day was perhaps the most 
physically demanding day of the trip.  This was also the longest day of 
the entire trip, as we finished in 19 hours and 36 minutes, just 3 minutes 
before midnight.  I screamed as I crossed the road, knowing that the 
PCT had thrown its best at me and I would finish, one way or another.  
10.  Harts Pass to the Canadian border - The views on this crystal 
clear day were unlike any other on the entire PCT.  The mountains 
looked unending into Canada, the valleys looked so deep.  It was so 
special sharing it with a good friend Scott McCoubry, realizing that 
this was the day that I had dreamed about for a long time.  The finish 
itself was a little anti-climactic.  

 Dr Bob:   
On June 27th, you'd used all your food by 2 p.m. and then found your 
support person couldn't meet you at Wilma Lake, due to snow. You 
camped w/o food, save for 2 oz of Olive oil and a handful of jerky 
scraps found in Brian's pack.  After sleeping, you pushed on to Sonora 
Pass.  Deliberate fasting is one thing, but covering approx 40 miles in 
26.5 hrs with no food is another. I saw in your notes that you first 
called the next day "the toughest day of the entire trip," but then 
modified that to "the toughest day of my life."  Please describe what 
you went through.  What did you experience physically and mentally?  
Bonking?  Terrible sugar lows?

DH: 
The day going into Sonora Pass was the most difficult day, mentally 
and emotionally.  It was the toughest day of my life.  I have never felt 
so weak, inadequate, and unworthy in all of my life.  Using the satellite 
phone to tell them that we were going to go on without food was the 
most difficult phone call I have ever made in my life.  I knew that an 
unbelievably difficult time lay ahead.  How difficult I didn't know.  
There was no day on the trip that I had more self doubts than that day.  
There was nowhere on the trip that I wanted to quit more or thought 
about quitting more than that day.  In fact, unbeknownst to Brian, 
I made the decision during the day that when I finished that day I 
was quitting.  I wanted out.  I wanted to be at home.  Mentally I think 
that it was much tougher than it was physically.  I never did get light 
headed or dizzy.  I felt weak and the climbs were very tough, but I 
don't remember physically suffering that badly.  Mentally though, I 
was dying.  It was made tougher to me by the fact that Brian did not 
seem to be suffering as much as I was.  He was also climbing better 
than I was and this made me feel even weaker.  I thought that the day 
would never end, but I knew that it would.  However, after making 
the last tough climb, I made the decision that if I took a day off, I 
thought I could keep going.  That gave me hope.  That got me excited.  
That was the turning point in this summer's adventure.

Dr. Bob:  
Talking about religion is a real turn-off for lots of folks.  However, 
you're a devout Christian.  Any connection for you between your 
adventure running and your faith?  Is there any component of "witness?" 

DH:
I believe that God gives people talents in different areas.  The one 
area where the Lord has given me talent is the ability to run long 
distances.  I believe that whatever talents the Lord gives us, we 
should use them as a means of ministering to others, physically and 
spiritually.  When possible and appropriate, I try to share the Good 
News of Jesus Christ, as well as the good news of exercise and its 
benefits to improving and maintaining a high quality of life.  This 
adventure running and racing gives me a platform by which I can 
spread these messages.  By the things that I do and say in running 
I try to live a Christ-like lifestyle.  Do I succeed in all situations?  
Of course not.  That is the goal and I try to achieve it, but I do fail, 
as all humans fail.

Dr. Bob:
As you actually ran the PCT, was there an active dialogue going on 
that transcended the "Oh God, help me" that most of us have when 
lightning strikes nearby or we are about to cross a swollen stream? 

DH:
I talked to the Lord on a daily basis while on the PCT.  There were 
times that I was praising Him and thanking Him for allowing me to be 
out there, even when things were difficult, not going as planned, or 
as I had hoped.  I often made the statement to God that "If it's 
going to be, it's up to Thee."  I prayed for wisdom in choices that I 
made daily.  I know that without God's help it wouldn't have been 
possible for me to have completed the PCT this past summer.  

Dr. Bob:
If you found the PCT run "uplifting," how were those feelings tied in 
with your personal feelings of faith?  

DH:
Before starting, I felt that this adventure was something that God 
wanted me to do.  Deep down, I didn't know that for sure.  But I 
told no one that.  Some time during the adventure this summer, I 
realized that God was in this, that God wanted me to complete this, 
and that He was going to help me complete this.  That gave me a 
peace of mind that I cannot explain.  I feel closest to God when I am 
out in the woods on a trail in His creation.  

Dr. Bob:
When I was the NBATC guidebook editor, I heard you give a terrific 
motivational talk.  How can we non-ultra runner types aspire to do 
adventures that take us beyond what we thought we could possibly do?  
	
DH:
1.  Dream - you have got to have dreams to have dreams come true.  I 
believe that we all have dreams.  Some people work hard to make 
those dreams become a reality.  
2.  Goals - A dream is different from a goal in the fact that goals 
should be very specific.  A dream that I had in 2004 was to complete 
the PCT.  The specific goal that I had for the PCT was to set a speed 
record.  Goals should be realistic but attainable.  They give direction 
and motivation to help achieve certain objectives.
3.  Inspiration/hero - We all need someone to inspire us, to motivate us, 
to encourage us.  We need heroes... people that we can look up to, 
emulate, and desire to be like.  I have been very fortunate in my life 
to have many heroes.  Two are Dr. Bill Nutter, the man who originally 
motivated me to run and to pursue a doctorate in Physical Education, 
and Bill Irwin, the only blind man to hike the Appalachian Trail.  Also, 
my parents, who encouraged me to never be lazy and to work hard and 
to achieve what I set out to achieve.  
4. Talent - To achieve certain levels of performance in any event or 
activity, you have to have a certain amount of talent.  God blesses us in 
some areas more than in other areas.  Everyone needs to determine the 
talents that God has given them and use them to glorify God and help 
improve the quality of life of others.  
5.  Prepare/train - As someone once said, "The will to win means 
nothing without the will to prepare."  Anything that is difficult to 
achieve or worthy to be achieved requires lots of preparation and 
lots of hard work.  NO ONE achieves anything exceptional without a 
dedication and work ethic.  It's the price one pays to reach certain 
goals or objectives.
6.  Support - We all need help.  We can't do it alone.  Anything that is 
of significance requires help from others.  The support that we need 
comes from both those who are willing to be 	part of helping us 
achieve our dreams and, for me, from the Lord.
7.  Positive attitude - To achieve something that is difficult, or to 
achieve anything, I believe that we need a positive attitude.  We have 
to believe that, with others' help, we can, we must, we will finish or 
achieve a certain goal.  My faith also helps here.  No one likes to be 
around a negative person.  Negative people will never achieve what 
positive people achieve.  Belief in things that will happen is a powerful 
motivator.  
8.  Adaptability - Things are never going to be quite like we think that 
they will be.  They are always going to be different in some way.  As a 
result, you are always going to have to make some kind of 
adjustment in terms of your plans, your training, your expectations, etc.  
The degree to which a person can adapt to adverse situations is greatly 
going to affect their potential for success.  Regardless of how good or 
bad that things seem, things will change.  
9.  Patience - I often pray for patience.  Here is how I pray: "Lord 
grant me patience and give it to me RIGHT NOW!"   This is something 
that I struggle with on a continual basis.  I want things to happen right 
now, in the way and exactly on the schedule that I want them to happen. 
Well, life doesn't work that way.  I am more patient now than I used 
to be.  But I still have a ways to go.  We have to do our part and let 
others do their part in helping us to achieve our dreams and goals.
10.  Perseverance/endurance - There are times when we think that 
this is never going to end...  that there is no way that I can accomplish 
this dream or complete this thing that I am doing.  I have felt that way
so many times and will again, I am sure.  However, I know that good 
things will happen if we are prepared, stay focused, positive, and if 
what we are doing is what is right for us to do.  For me, there is also 
knowing that those who wait upon the Lord will be renewed.
11.  It never always gets worse - There are times when the pain is so 
bad (physical and/or emotional) that you think I cannot endure it any 
longer.  You can go on, you can endure it... it WILL get better.  Things 
are never quite as good - or as bad - as you think that they will be.  
12.  Learn to finish/don't quit - We are all creatures of habit.  Our 
habits can be finishing things or starting things and not finishing things.

Always try to finish what you start.  Once you quit it is easier to quit 
again.  Finishing is a habit; quitting can become a habit.  Winners never 
quit, and quitters never win.  Are you a finisher or a quitter?  If you 
are a quitter, CHANGE!  Become a finisher.

Dr Bob: 
I guess I have to ask... what's next for you?

DH:
I have some thoughts and ideas in mind, but nothing concrete.  It's 
early November and I feel I am just now starting to recover and be 
able to run without significant pain.  It is hard to think about doing 
anything when you are still hurting.  Besides, I don't really like to 
announce what I am going to do until I am committed to a particular 
goal.  

Dr Bob:  
I understand that JB Benna and his company, Journeyfilm, are 
producing a DVD on your PCT adventure called The Runner.  Do you 
know when it's available and how to see a preview or order it?

DH:
I'm told it will be available in late December through  
http://www.journeyfilm.com.  It's got some footage of me crying in it.  
Those were tough moments.

Dr Bob:
Is there anything you would like to say, in conclusion, to the rest of us 
who love and trek the PCT?

DH:
Enjoy the planning and the adventure.  It's been said before, but 
don't concentrate on the completion of the trail.  The journey is really 
the important thing, not the destination.

The PCT is by far the neatest trail that I have ever done... much 
more so than the AT.  I like the diversity.  It's unbelievable.  The AT 
is called the long green tunnel, with just a few spectacular views 
in open areas.  The PCT is exactly the opposite...  spectacular views, 
with occasional long green tunnels.  I really do want to go back and 
do some sections of the PCT again.  Of course, there are some 
sections that I don't want to do EVER again.  If I were to 
recommend a trail for its views, it would have to be the PCT.  I do 
think that you have to be a better, tougher, and more prepared hiker 
to do the PCT than to do the AT.  The same is true for runners as well.  

Dr Bob:  
Thanks, David.
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