[pct-l] Conversation with Dave Toms (very long)

[rellinwood at worldnet.att.net (Robert Ellinwood)]

2nd attempt to post:

I recently had several very nice email exchanges with David Toms, who 
as you know successfully thru-hiked continuously north through the 
snows of the Sierra with his wife, Michele, this summer.  He made 
some observations that might be of interest to other hikers on the list.  
The following is an edited distillation of several exchanges between us.

Dr Bob: 
I noticed your "rat-infested bear boxes" picture.  Do you remember 
just where that rat/bear box was?  Or where there more than one?   
Most?

Dave: 
The rats had taken up residence in a bear box as somebody appeared 
to have cached food there from the prior year, and there was a 
horrific mess of food, rats, poop, etc. in the boxes. We could not have 
used them.  The rat box was Glen Aulin (Yosemite) where apparently 
bear sightings are guaranteed. We didn't see any :-(    We didn't 
check any other bear boxes, although contrary to our expectations 
and what we'd been told, we saw many that weren't buried by snow - 
it tended to melt out around them. We're very glad we didn't plan 
to rely on them, because their locations would not have fit our 
schedules at all; the canisters were essential.

Dr Bob:
I noted your Stephenson Warmlite 2R tent.   I, too, have one 
(my 3rd one) that my wife and I usually use when hiking together.  
Did you have tons of condensation inside in cold snowy weather?  
I have never seen our tent so wet inside as in the semi-blizzard 
we had in the Sky Lakes Wilderness.  Condensation is no big issue 
with me, except as it wets down the sleeping bags.  But if I am 
going to deal with that much wetness, I might as well get a Henry 
Shires Rainshadow 2 and save a good pound in weight.  (My Shires 
Virga 2 worked really well for me alone this summer.)  What did you 
experience with your Stephenson?

Dave:
The 2R is great - we have some condensation but it was never really 
bad in the Sierra - only a bit on the Silver section in the snow when 
we were snow camping, and lots on the single-skin end cones 
(as always). We spent 36 hrs in the tent on Fuller Ridge in a snowstorm 
(inc cooking) and it wasn't too damp at the end. Condensation was 
worse later on when we camped in damper areas like Washington. 
It was only a problem when it rained a lot for a couple of days and 
the tent was wet inside and out.  Opening the windows helped a lot, 
but reduced the insulating value of the tent.

We find 2 huge advantages to the Stephenson : 1) it's WAY warmer 
than even a normal tent, let alone a tarp, saving us a lot of weight on 
our bags (we had only 225g, 8oz, of down each in our bags, yet were 
never cold. Our sleeping bags are Rab Quantum 200, a British bag 
with no US equivalent that I'm aware of.  Just over a pound each, 
8oz down, no zip, and warm enough in the Sierra at 12,000ft.  Michele 
sleeps pretty cold, so would wear her down jacket inside 
her bag in the Sierra.    2) It's a very tough tent, so we could put it up 
in exposed locations without worrying.  I would definitely use it again.

Only problems we had were:  his laser/hot knife fabric edging is 
rubbish. Most of the fabric edges frayed at least once, and needed 
re-melted with a lighter.  Also, the zips would sometimes freeze and 
then would need to be squeezed together with pliers to get them to 
work properly.  Still, no tent like it for the weight.

Dr Bob:
What kind of camera did you use?   Any filters?

Dave:
Pentax optio s40 4MP digital, 3x optical zoom, AA batteries, metal 
body (drop-proof in our testing!). no filters. The pics on the web 
haven't even been photoshopped.

Dr Bob:
I noted your canister stove.  I'm still using alcohol, in that I've been 
leery of the canister availability-shipment-resupply problem.  How 
did you solve that?

Dave:
We had no problem.  2 of us could get 4 weeks use out of a 225 
canister.  We resupplied at:
1) start (half full can)
2) Idyllwild
3) Agua Dulce (and bought a 450 canister to mail to KM for the 
	sierras)
4) KM with a 450 canister as we didn't know how much we'd need for 
	snowmelt etc. - I'd always carry too much fuel in the snow 
	because if you get tentbound at altitude in a bad storm for 
	even a few days, without enough fuel to melt water, you'll be 
	coming home in a box. Turned out we could have got by easily 
	with a 225
5) VVR - didn't resupply here but you could - they stock them, also 
	Mammoth stocks them
6) South Lake Tahoe, and mailed one to Burney falls
7) Burney falls (unnecessary - old one had lots in it)
8) Ashland and mailed one to Cascade locks
9) Cascade Locks (unnecessary - old one had lots in it - could have 
	done Sisters instead)
10) (Sisters - didn't, but could have; there's an outfitter in town)
11) (Stehekin - unnecessary as we had enough)

TBH, The whole alcohol stove thing struck me as one of the great herd 
instincts of the PCT (no offence intended!). We found that most 
alcohol stove users were carrying as much weight of alcohol solo as we 
carried in gas for 2 people. Alcohol is a really low energy density fuel, 
in a really inefficient stove.  If the worst had happened and there had 
been no canisters somewhere, I'd have made a pepsi stove and bought 
some alcohol, but this proved unnecessary.

Dr Bob:
When in bear-bagging country, I carry 2 bear-bagging ropes for quick 
hanging between 2 trees with no horizontal limbs.  I really want to find 
lighter ones.  What did you use for bear-bagging ropes?  In your view, 
is the flat spectra cord too binding on branches?

Dave:
We used 60ft of kevlar cord weighing just over an ounce, with a 300lb+ 
breaking strain. it cut into branches a bit but not badly. The spectra 
stuff can be a PITA to tie and untie knots with.  Our kevlar stuff has 
a sheath so takes knots well.  We used bear canisters for the 400 miles 
that really mattered (KM to SLT) and only bagged in SoCal and 
N Washington - we always managed to find some kind of limb to use. 
We tried to minimize the cutting action of the cord by throwing the 
bag up and pulling the cord at the same time.

Dr Bob:
Kevlar cord?   Is it just called "Kevlar cord"  and what is your source?

Dave:
We got it from www.pointnorth.co.uk (where they sell lots of fabrics 
as well, like the .6oz spinnaker silnylon we used for our rain pants).  
The very best (but very pricey) stuff you can get is actually cord used 
on racing yachts, made either of dyneema or (best of all) vectran.  A 
sailing/yachting shop in the US should have some equivalents. If you 
get the stuff with a sheath its heavier but will hold knots better.

Dr Bob:
We have the same Bear Vaults you used.  I'm aware of the recent 
postings about the one bear who seems to be able to crack the vault, 
as it were.  Any problems or suggestions, as per your experience?

Dave:
Fortunately we didn't get bear-tested - sensible creatures were still 
down in the valleys where there was no snow and more food (at least 
in the Sierra). Just hike with some thru-hikers who sleep with 
their food and the bear will leave your canisters alone :-)   Biggest 
problem with the canisters was the unwieldiness of them in our packs - 
made it hard to get the balance right.  I think people don't always 
realize how much food you can get into a can - we got 20lbs into each 
Bearvault.

Dr Bob:
One big reason I chose not to plow ahead at KM last summer, as you 
did, was not the snow - I've done that bit before - but my fear of the 
deep creek crossings. As I look at your photos of Evolution Creek and 
Kerrick Creek, I have to ask:  Where did you cross at each, in relation 
to the trail?  The roar of heavy fast water puts the fear of God in me.  
Did you cross right where the trail hits the creek or up/down stream 
a bit?

Dave:
We were lucky - early entry meant minimal snowmelt until after 
Tuolumne.  We use the Alaskan technique of river fording where one 
person (Michele) stands behind, pushing the front person (me) against 
the current - front person creates a big eddy which means the back 
person is stable and can hold them much more easily as long as it's less 
than waist deep :-)  More people = bigger group, either triangle, 
diamond or square formations.  I'm surprised by the times groups of 
people cross individually.

Everything up to Evolution was an easy splash or snowbridge

Evolution:  knee deep, easy splash. 20 yds upstream of where trail hits.
Bear:  knee-lower thigh, easy splash, at trail
Mono:  mid thigh, short and sharp but not hard
Silver:  mid thigh, easy with only one 3ft stretch of waist deep water, 
I stood in front of the worst bit, creating an eddy for Michele to 
cross 	behind me.

After Tuolumne, the snowmelt started and it got hairier.

The nasty ones were:
Return creek - swam last bit
Piute creek - swam
Kerrick Creek - arrived in evening.  Huge mass of Grade 4-5 
	whitewater. 	Terrifying.  Figured out a plan for Michele to 
	take a running jump and swim across (she's a good swimmer) 
	with the rope, then me jump in and her haul on the rope.  
	Fortunately, the water had dropped a bit the next 
	morning.  Got swept in once trying to cross at the trail.  
	Grabbed some willows, hauled ourselves out, went 200 yds 
	upstream and *just* made it across.  Never again.  
Stubblefield - swam 
Cascade - looked bad but was ok where trail crossed, heading slightly 
	diagonally downstream. This route followed a slightly shallower 
	bit of the river bed.

Dr Bob:
The Glacier Peak relo:  I've researched this as well as anyone can 
ahead of time.  A) Did you do the old west side, fording the Suiattle 
River?  B) The regular east side FS relo (Little Giant Pass)?  C) The 
Jonathan Ley (Napeequa/High Pass) route? D) the road walk around?  
Any comments or suggestions?

Dave:
We did the hiker detour - Little Giant Pass. All apart from L. Giant was 
very PCT-like.  L Giant was tough, but it's only 4 miles up and 4 down - 
really not that bad!  However, I was convinced the distances for this 
route overall were about 10% too low - that or our pace was different 
for this c. 40 mile stretch compared to the other 2000+ !

I spoke to people who did High Pass and it sounded fine - we decided 
it was a shortcut, therefore (for us) not an option.  2 people hiking 
with us split off to do the original PCT & we met them after. Was all 
fine apart from the Suiattle, where there was a log across, but part 
of it was underwater and had a strong flow over it. They enjoyed it 
but navigation etc. slowed them down a bit. We couldn't face more 
potentially bad fords after Kerrick.

Dr Bob:
A silly question:   I can look this up somewhere I guess, but - looking 
at your pictures of Thimbleberries and wild Strawberries - how can 
you tell the difference between them?    

Dave:
Thimbleberries grow on a bush up to about head height and look & 
taste much like a raspberry. Strawberries are a ground-based bush. 
They were spectacularly good.

Dr Bob:
Looking at your pictures of the snow in N WA, I am prompted to ask:  
To what extent did you bounce clothing from section to section on 
your hike?

Dave:
The snow was only on our last day - made a nice ending.  We dumped 
crampons & axes at Sierra City, and from Chester we sent warm stuff 
to Cascade Locks. We collected it all there except my down jacket 
which I didn't need, tho' Michele used hers.  Apart from that we took 
all our warm clothes from the start all the way to Chester.

Dr Bob:
Are there other places/spots/routes you can offer "words of wisdom" 
about?  

Dave:
The alternate routes just beyond Timberline Lodge (before you get as 
far as Eagle Creek Trail) are beautiful.  Much higher and more alpine 
than the current designated PCT.   The route over Old Snowy later on 
is also a must - I can't believe they rerouted the PCT to avoid it!

The lava rocks weren't nearly as bad as people hyped them up to be. 
This held true for most of the trail challenges.  Even the Sierra were 
nothing like as bad as everyone had told us.

Dr Bob:
You mentioned using Sealskins.   Were they satisfactory?  Last 
summer I carried a pair of Sealskinz AND a pair of Gore-tex socks, 
as a sort of test.  I wore one set as mittens and the other as socks in 
wet snow.  Then the next time I switched.  I found (and my wife did 
also) that the Sealskinz felt wet inside (appeared to leak) after a 
couple hours, whereas the Gore-tex socks didn't.   You were happy 
with your Sealskins?

Dave:
Sealskinz were great for up to about 7 days usage. We've returned 2 
pairs under warranty so far, and given up on another 2. They start 
leaking after a week or so; we wore big holes in ours after a couple of 
weeks, but they're a (I think UK only) 'ultralight' model.  Next time 
we'd use neoprene socks.

Dr Bob:
A sock question:
	a)  How many liners?  b)How many regular socks?

Dave:
a) 1 pair liners to use either inside the Sealskinz (the ultralights have 
quite a rough inner) or as sleeping socks.  Nike dryfit mesh.
b) "Regular"...  We took a longer pair (light hiker) and shorter pair 
(adrenaline mini crew) each.  The longer ones are nice when its cold, 
or if we needed to tuck the bottoms of our trousers into them (rarely) 
for ticks. The shorter mini crews are lighter, slightly cooler, and have 
a slightly better fit.  Michele switched to just 2 pairs mini crews as 
she preferred the fit.

Dr Bob:
We are in the market for that elusive ideal combination of weight and 
warmth in a down jacket.  I assume that you did a ton of research 
before ending up with WM flight vests and/or jackets?  Can I save 
a ton of research by noting your choice as the probable best choice? :)

Dave:
We loved them. They are quite short, so you can get a cold midriff/
lower back in some positions.  Michele's jacket is her favorite piece 
of gear.  We did notice that the WM material isn't quite as 
downproof as pertex quantum - I don't know if they also make a 
quantum version, it might be 5-10g heavier if they did.

Dr Bob:
I note in your pictures your Tilley hats...  

Dave:
Overall, they were our worst bit of gear- not that they were bad - 
I'd definitely use them again, but they were supposed to be infinitely 
durable, unlike all our ultralight stuff, but by the end they looked in 
a real state.  Frayed threads inside, the 'secret pocket' on mine was 
hanging loose, & the brims were all wobbly.

Dr Bob:
Mitts?   I prefer mitts to gloves (cold fingers), but sent mine home for
weight-saving last summer and regretted it.   Could you handle ice axes 
OK with mitts, as opposed to gloves?  Are yours waterproof?  
What brand?

Dave:
Michele used buffalo mitts (a UK brand - pertex shell, fibre pile inner; 
they make lots of other stuff). It's not really water proof, just water 
resistant and fast drying, but also really warm when wet.  I regretted 
not bringing mine.  I used Mountain Hardware micro ozone fleece 
gloves with sticky dots on them.  Worked well with the axe, but not 
very warm and took ages to dry.  Buffalo mitts next time!

Dr Bob:
You mentioned "thermals."   What kind?  I've tended to shy away from 
them because I hate to take layers off in order to add an underneath 
layer, as opposed to just quickly adding another outer layer.  Your 
experience? Did you use them a lot?  Worth the weight?

Dave:
Helly Hansen lifa sport.  Used them mainly as sleeping clothes. Also 
used for river swimming in the Sierra (they function as a thin wetsuit!).  
We'd start out each morning in them for an hour or two, then stop and 
change into our hiking shirts. That way the thermals stayed sweat 
free for sleeping.

Interestingly, there was no point, either hiking or sleeping, when we 
wore all our clothes at the same time, so technically we carried a bit 
much.  With a thermal, thin fleece top, down jacket, windshell, 
waterproof rainjacket and hat on, we were extremely warm. We 
never hiked in our down gear, just sat around camp or slept in it.

They were definitely worth the weight - Michele can run quite cold, 
so she'd use hers more than me, but I'm still a big fan of them.

Dr Bob:
You also mentioned "fleece legs."   I assume you mean fleece pants? 
Used often? Worth the weight?   What kind?

Dave:
 Mountain Equipment co-op children's (!) polartec 100 stretch fleece 
leggings. Fantastic - light and very warm. Sleeping or camp clothes 
mainly, also cold early mornings.  Other pants:  We hiked in lightweight 
beige nylon trousers all the time - better sun, plant bug protection. 
We also carried lightweight spinnaker silnylon overtrousers (=UK for 
rain pants) which were very water resistant but not completely 
waterproof. We used them 2 or 3 times on the whole trip. We had 
thought of carrying much heavier, breathable overtrousers for 
Washington but instead switched to a slightly heavier silnylon 
overtrouser we'd made.  Pointlessly I might add - we should have 
just stuck with the lighter almost-waterproof ones!

Dr Bob:
What type/make of sleeping pad did you elect to go with?  

Dave:
Gossamer Gear Nightlight 3/4 length (-full length for Michele!) 150cm 
pads. Fantastic, they last 2 months before the bumps flatten out and 
they need To be replaced. We also used a GG thinlight 3mm pad each 
which went under the tent to provide extra insulation and stop sharp 
things puncturing the tent floor. My experience is that most heat loss 
at night is conduction to the ground, thus putting more insulation 
there (our pads totaled an inch) is more effective than a heavier 
sleeping bag. This is particularly true on snow, which we only camped 
on a few times, even in the sierra we could usually find some bare 
ground/rock.

Dr Bob:
You mentioned "silk liners."  I know they add warmth, but was the 
weight worth it, and did you not find them "balling up" around your 
body inside the sleeping bag? To avoid the latter, did you "attach" 
them to your bag in some way?

Dave:
No too much balling; no attachment needed for us - we're not 
particularly violent sleepers.  Minimal warmth, mainly through stopping 
convection currents in the bag;  adding 100g of down would give a huge 
amount more warmth.  Big plus was keeping the sleeping bags clean - 
we've had no loss of loft despite using the sleeping bags continuously 
for a year now (we had 6 months traveling before starting the PCT). 
We'd hand-wash the liners in every town. Other minor advantage was 
we had zipless bags, so on warmer nights we could sleep in the liner 
with the bags just pulled over us, without the draftiness that would 
normally occur.

Dr Bob:
Finally, what would you and Michele do differently next time, 
in relation to equipment, clothing, modus operandi, resupply, etc.???

Dave:
Two copies of the data sheets, so Michele could see where we were. 
She still doesn't know :-)   Enter the sierras a week earlier to avoid 
the nasty snowmelt stream crossings. This would imply in a normal year 
entering early May I guess. Wouldn't have carried a water filter 400 
miles before realizing it was worthless and just use chemicals instead 
(which we had as a backup anyway!)  Carried a bit more 'real food' 
for the 1st day leaving town. Taken more photos, and taken more time 
over them.  Neoprene socks for the Sierra (we still have mild frostnip 
and numb big toes)

There's some difficult tradeoffs we made that we're still not sure 
which way we'd go in future. In particular, we sped up a fair bit from 
Chester onwards  - 14 zeros till there, 3 after that.  This meant we 
finished before things got nastily cold and wet in Washington, but we 
didn't spend as long in some places as we'd have liked.  We also 
finished in time to fly to Malaysia for 10 days rest before coming 
back to jobs in the UK, which eased our "re-entry" process.  If we'd 
taken more time, there were some places we could have spent longer at 
(Crater Lake, Sisters, Timberline Lodge, Etna).  However, the tradeoff 
of not hiking the last week or two in rain was worth it.  In the end, I 
think the weather held at least through September, but it could have 
been a lot wetter!

After the incredible beauty and wilderness experience that was 
availble on the trail this year, we would only want to hike it again 
in a similar year, although priorities probably won't permit. In the 
snowy high Sierra, we had 23 days where we saw only 2 people (apart 
from the guy we hiked with).

Dr Bob:
I can't thank you enough for all your help, Dave.  It helps me personally, 
and - in edited form - may well help others also.  I'll post this, so thanks

for all of us!