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[pct-l] Re: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List
- Subject: [pct-l] Re: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the Camping List
- From: cmoulder@nyc.rr.com (Bob Moulder)
- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:20:10 -0400
- References: <000001c11041$896b16e0$74bd9618@budu1.on.home.com>
To all, but especially Tom,
>From Rob's Campinglist website --
"Privacy Statement. Your name, e-mail address, and any other information =
you may provide, will be used exclusively for purposes of maintaining =
the Camping List. Information you provide will never be provided to =
other parties."
I would submit to you that "other parties" includes pct-l, and that if =
it is Rob's policy not to provide names and e-mail addresses to other =
parties, then it is also not permitted for other Campinglist members to =
"back door" Rob's policy.
Once and for all, Tom (and anybody else, though it doesn't seem to be an =
issue with anybody else), please don't forward -- Never, ever -- =
anybody's messages to anybody else in the Entire Freakin' Universe for =
Any Reason without specific, explicit permission from each party =
involved for each and every message you might propose to forward.
Seems we've discussed this before, eh?
-- Bob
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Kerry Knudsen=20
To: 'Reynolds, WT' ; Camping List (E-mail) ; pct-l@backcountry.net=20
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 6:56 AM
Subject: RE: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the =
Camping List
You must be a Catholic, Tom, answering a question with a question. To =
answer your question, it would be absolutely peachy if some of them =
joined. Of course, there is no evidence they either have or will. =
Further, as indicated by my forwarding of the rejection I got from them, =
they have no interest in what I have to say directly. The do, however, =
seem interested to let you forward selected messages from me. I could =
speculate on many reasons why they would want to read my messages but =
not allow me to participate directly, but I don't have enough evidence =
to form a conclusion. I certainly would reject any implication on your =
part that you did this for promotional reasons.
So I will ask you again, why on earth are you compiling and forwarding =
MY messages to pct-l? You must recall we have been down this road =
before, Tom. Since the outcome was not particularly enjoyable for =
anybody, I am really shocked that we are back in the same spot. Your =
communications GPS must have failed. Even if you decided (as you clearly =
did) to ignore the last time and forward my messages to a group I have =
not evaluated for its worth, I would have thought you would not make it =
public.
As an aside, I find it REALLY irritating to Reply to All on a private =
discussion list and then get a snotty response from some West Coast =
halfwit telling me I'm not qualified to speak in his presence.
But I digress. Why on earth are you compiling and forwarding my =
messages to the halfwit and his domain?
kk
-----Original Message-----
From: Reynolds, WT [mailto:reynolds@iLAN.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 7:49 PM
To: 'kknudsen@home.com'; Reynolds, WT
Subject: RE: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the =
Camping List
I would be nice if some of them joined, eh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Knudsen [mailto:kerryknudsen@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 4:45 PM
To: Reynolds, WT; Campinglist (E-mail); pct-l@backcountry.net
Subject: Re: The Electronic Backpacker [long] - thread from the =
Camping List
Why on earth are you compiling and forwarding our messages to =
pct-l?=20
kk=20
"Reynolds, WT" <reynolds@iLAN.com> wrote:=20
Message [Tom to All]
Subject: The Electronic Backpacker
Synopsis: The pros and cons of electronics on the trail
Message 1 [Tom to all]
Next week I am trying my electronic backpacker approach. The =
components are
an eTREK SUMMIT GPS that combines compass, altimeter and GPS =
into a 5 ounce
package along with maps output from Topo! electronic maps. I =
will leave my
trusty USGS maps and standard compass and altimeter at home and =
try to
follow a trail through many trail junctions through Giant Forest =
in Sequoia
National Park. Naturally I will carry my satellite phone in case =
I get in
trouble.
Message 2 [Bob to all]
"Hello, 911 Operator -- How may I help you?"
"Come get me, I've twisted my ankle."
"Where are you?"
"Somewhere in the Sequoia National Park."
"Sir, can you be a little more specific than that?"
"No, my GPS batteries died yesterday afternoon, and I found out =
that my
replacements shorted out in my pack and they're dead, too. So =
I'm about a
day's walk south of Smart Bear Lake, as best I can figure. I've =
been
chatting with my stock broker and my accountant, so the phone =
battery's
pretty low on juice as well. Anyhow, I planned ahead so I'd have =
enough
power to finish this call, and maybe another. Anyway, Cisco's =
tanking for
real -- get out while you still can."
"Oh, uh, so what was the last sign you passed on the trail."
"Well, it came a gullywasher yesterday afternoon and I kind of =
got off trail
looking for a place to avoid lightning bolts. I zigged and =
zagged through
the woods and found this really neat little overhang, almost =
like a cave.
Anyway, after the storm was over I circled around for a couple =
of hours and
just couldn't find the damn trail again. So I just decided to =
continue
south, or what I assume is south. That's how I twisted my ankle, =
hiking on
this rough stuff off trail. The Sun was to my left as I departed =
camp this
morning, so that's basically south, isn't it?"
"Okay, about where do you think you are on your map?"
"Map? Who needs maps? I've got a chair, though."
"Have a nice day."
* Bob
Message 3 [Don to Tom]
Tom, this should be interesting. I still do not have a GPS. On =
my recent
trip, I was not sure where a trail junction was and exactly how =
far my
destination lake was [ie, a couple of hundred yards or 3/4 =
mile?]. I
figured a GPS would have told me, and I thought at the time =
about whether I
wished I had one with me. I did not come to any definitive =
conclusion.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Don Horst
Message 4 [Tom to Don]
My GPS process is designed to identify trail junctions. When I =
simply used a
compass I was unsure if a trail junction was one marked on the =
map or an
unmarked trail. Basically, I relied on the signs. When I =
purchased an
altimeter things were more accurate but I was still unsure. My =
process is.
1-Map the trail in Topo!
2-Ask topo! to create a route.
3-Download the route.
I will be testing this process first in Giant Forest where many =
trails
intersect and later on a cross country to North Glacier Pass =
where I picked
the best route based on the map. We'll see.
I am carrying a satellite phone for two reasons. First is the =
example you
cited. Another example is a hiker who died last year climbing =
New Army Pass
in the winter. He was able to get into his sleeping bag but died =
there. A
working satellite phone would have saved him. The second, =
however, is the
storm front that descended on our hike last year. If Ginnie had =
not heard
about it on the radio we would have been snowed in.
Tom
Message 5 [KK to all]
I had a pertinent experience this spring. Two friends and I =
headed out from
our base camp to find a lake appropriately named Lost Lake. We =
left the
canoes behind to see if we could find the lake and a reasonable =
portage.=20
All I had was my map and compass. And, when we arrived to what =
should have
been the end of the trail, there was an intersection instead.=20
We followed one for about 500 meters, but then I stopped and =
showed them on
the map where a height of land should have been on our left and =
appeared to
be on our right. I suggested we return to the intersection, =
which we did.=20
Then we took the other fork. Again, we started going up when we =
should have
been going down, so I suggested we return to the intersection. =
Given the
information given us by the land itself, and the information on =
the map, I
struck a bearing and told my friends the lake should be 300 =
meters or less
on a line, and I pointed.=20
Based on my projections, we cut off the trail and in minutes =
were in sight
of the lake.=20
My friends were amazed. I was not. I cannot imagine relying on a =
GPS to do
what you cannot do yourself with a map and compass. Heck, =
Magellan didn't
even have a map. If you can orient yourself with a map and =
compass, you
should still carry one while you play with the GPS.=20
Not that I don't think GPSes work. Ask Sadam Hussein. It's just =
that they
rely on batteries and human input before they revert right back =
to the same
map you have to use in the first place.=20
The unfortunate end to my story is that the portage was too =
arduous for my
friends to undertake, so Lost Lake, though found, is still as =
good as lost.
No trails to it.=20
kk=20
Message 6 [Bob to all]
First there are the batteries to rely upon. Then there are the =
satellites.
Both are made by man, and both fail from time to time. Heck, one =
good
meteor shower might knock a number of geosynchronous satellites =
out. We
can't take things for granted. Some people used to take =
electricity for
granted in California. The GPS runs on electricity too. At least =
with the
compass, us old fashioned folks only have to worry about the =
compass that
was made by man, which doesn't have batteries. So it doesn't =
"run down''.
And the magnetic field is hard to mess up even if it does move =
around some.
I'm sure other backpackers holding their fancy GPS and Leki =
poles would
laugh at my leaning against my old dead wooden stick from the =
forest while I
take a compass reading.
One thing I do with doesn't fit my own philosophy though is the =
Zzip
stove. It runs on a battery . And I doubt if it would cook well =
w/o the
battery power, though I would just build an open fire instead if =
that
happened and my food just had to be cooked. -Bob in Okla
Message 6a [Tom to all]
I think everyone on this list can read a map. However a map is a =
problem
when you are in dense forest or in a canyon where you have =
nothing to site
on. An altimeter solves this problem somewhat because your =
altitude will
tend to tell you how far down a canyon you are. What a GPS =
appears to do
better is:
1-Differentiate trail junctions. Are we where we think we are? =
We all know
how accurate maps aren't.
2-Allow you to retrace your route. It is possible to get lost =
within 300
meters and never find the trail again.
3-Accurately follow a cross-country route. Sometimes a simple =
cross-country
can save miles. You simply lay out the route on a map and create =
a waypoint
route. Naturally your route will vary based on terrain features =
but you will
still wind up at the right notch.
Re: . I'm sure other backpackers holding their fancy GPS and =
Leki poles
would laugh at my leaning against my old dead wooden stick from =
the forest
while I take a compass reading.=20
Yep because the electronic gadgets are simply better as are the =
Leki poles.
That an electronic device can fail begs the question. Mt watch =
has a compass
and an altimeter so I have a backup if necessary. The real =
question is how
can I find where I am faster and more accurately.
That a satellite phone can also fail is true but also begs the =
question.
When it works it can save my life! Smoke signals simply won't =
get it.
I know that to many people these gadgets take the fun out of =
backpacking.
Not to me. If they do to you don't use em.
Hike your own hike.
Tom
Message 7 [KK to all]
For me, much of the challenge of camping is in being able to =
weather a storm
instead of going home.=20
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to find =
my way in and
out of places without a guide, electronic or otherwise.=20
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to catch =
fish pretty
much on demand, knowing over 500 species of edible wild =
mushrooms and how to
hunt and gather.=20
For me, much of the challenge of camping is being able to cook =
better than
almost anybody, making do with what I have.=20
For me, much of the joy of camping is having no telephone at =
all.=20
I have used a satellite phone, eaten boil-in-a-bag, hired a =
guide and bailed
out to a hotel. However, each time I felt I had copped out. I am =
an
independent sort.=20
As for your three points, I think a map and compass allows you =
to
differentiate trail junctions, and the GPS system relies on the =
same maps. A
map and compass also allows you to retrace your route. =
Naturally, a bunch of
extraneous trails from overuse makes it more challenging. Like a =
suburb. And
a map and compass are perfect for following a cross-country =
route. That is
exactly what I illustrated by my example.=20
I am not trying to argue, Tom, that GPSes don't work. However, I =
can't
imagine anybody would seriously argue that a map and compass =
doesn't work.
GPSes, boil-in-bags and satellite phones all work. They just =
stretch my view
of wilderness camping.=20
kk=20
Message 8 {Bob to KK]
Good points all, especially the fishing and cooking parts.
For me, much of the fun lies in researching a trip, studying the =
maps and
landforms, and figuring compass bearings from key locations. =
What astonishes
me is the number of people using compasses who don't know the =
magnetic
declination for the area they're in, or can't recognize a cliff =
on a topo
map. Seems to me that with GPS a lot of newbies are just =
plugging in
coordinates for point A and B while overlooking the stuff in =
between.
In my experience there are two kinds of navigation: everyday =
navigation and
navigation under duress. I have navigated under duress a few =
times and have
always reverted back to basic lessons learned at the USAF =
Survival School in
the woods near Spokane, WA some 25 years ago. When Momma Nature =
is whooping
up on ya, it's KISS. Simply taking a blind bearing and following =
a contour
has gotten my ass out of a jam a few times. Slowing down when =
the primal
instinct says hurry has worked many, many times.
But I'm with you in that one of my goals when going into the =
woods is to get
away from technology for a while, to de-fog my mind of Photoshop =
channel
operations and concerns about my motherboard's speed.
-- Bob
Message 9 [Don to all]
>> Re Bob B: You and I need to go on a hike, and leave our =
compasses and
topos at home! <<
All the positions have been laid out here again. I just can't =
decide where
I come down on them. I love gadgets. Most of us will probably =
not leave the
trail head without compass and topo. I am not about to do things =
like the
early explorers [or John Muir]did.=20
One of the times I most wished for a GPS was a trip a couple of =
years ago
with Tom and family. We had just crossed Forester Pass at 13,200 =
feet. Tom
was sick [he claims it was altitude, but a day after I got home, =
I came down
with the same symptoms and was in bed for several days]. All of =
us were
tired. We knew where there was a lake at which we wanted to =
camp, and we
had a compass bearing to it, but, due to the terrain, we could =
not tell how
far it was. If it had been at the furthest point we could see, =
we would
have had problems making it, and would have taken an =
alternative. As it
turned out, Tom's son and I had just enough energy left to =
search for and
find the lake, and we all got there fine, but a GPS would have =
helped a lot
by giving us the distance. On that occasion, I would have liked =
one with us,
I think.
That was what got me musing on my last trip, when I was unsure =
how far I was
from my destination lake. A GPS would have told me, and made =
life much
simpler. On the other hand, I had the energy to do the required =
searching,
and was glad afterward that I had done it. If I had had a GPS, I =
would have
used it and missed the little bit of adventure.
I suppose I could carry one and use it only in emergencies, but =
that goes
against my efforts to travel light, as well as my doubts about =
the principle
of carrying electronic aids. I will probably continue to mull =
the matter
over for a while.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Don
Message 10 [Tom to KK,Bob]
KK,Bob-
If the challenge of making do is part of the allure of =
backpacking, by all
means do it YOUR way. It's YOUR hike!
Message 11 [Tom to all]
I remember the incident that Don relates well including the =
anxiety of being
out-of-gas and not knowing how far I had to go. Actually, the =
day before I
was sick also and the team wasted much time scouting ahead to =
see how far we
needed to hike to make our destination and decide weather to =
camp in an
alternate location.
One of my personal problems is that my son considers me too old =
and slow to
backpack with anymore. [I suspect Bob would also]. I, on the =
other hand,
intend to get out there as long as I can walk; as long as I can =
get someone
to carry me. That's what I told the old ladies in the nursing =
home I go to
on Sundays. They agree!
Anyhow, without Don and my son this hike over Forrester and =
Shepherds pass
would have been less than fun. A GPS would have saved the day.
I guess it comes down to what your goals are. Make it from =
Mexico to Canada
in one year?, Pit my intelligence and creativity against the =
environments?
Not me. I just want to be out there.
Tom
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