RE: [at-l] Plastic Mountaineering Boots

["Mayer, Jim" <JMayer@crt.xerox.com>]

Pooh,

Well, actually more of the folks I know wear Sorells than plastics.  I own a
pair of Scarpa Invernos, which are plastic double boots.  I got them
because, for some reason, they fit pretty well.  I just didn't have any luck
with the Sorell style boots.  I've always had hard to fit feet, and some
boots just fit better than the others.  As anyone with hard to fit feet
knows, when you find something that fits you buy it.

Actually, your problem might have been helped by my point #8 below (leave
them loose at the top when hiking as opposed to climbing).  I got that hint
off the net by the way.

Anyway, I find the Scarpa's quite comfortable.  Some of the other plastic
boots I tried I couldn't even wear around the store.  The problem wasn't
that the boots were intrinsically bad, the problem was that they didn't fit
MY feet.  The Scarpa's tend to the wide side, and have reasonable toe room.
If the toe was just shaped a little more like a duck's foot they'd be
perfect for me :-)

Just to let you gauge my experience, I bought these boots last year.  I've
hiked probably twelve to fifteen miles in them (mostly on training dayhikes
around town).  I only got to use them on one "real" trip last year, which
was climbing Giant and Rocky Ridge Peak in the Adirondacks.  I got a small
heal blister on one foot on that trip.  By the end of the trip my feet felt
fine, but I literally had to pick my leg up to get it into the car.  My
"lifting" muscles were completely gone.  My shins were fine though!

The rest of this note summarizes what I found out about plastic double boots
when I looked into them last year.  I really put it together for the net...
you (Pooh) clearly have a lot more winter experience than I do, and don't
need to hear the caveats I threw in at the end.

Here is what I know about plastic double boots (I'm hardly an expert though
and most of this is second hand):

(1) To first order, forget break in.  They are completely rigid by design.
The inner boot (mine are made of closed cell foam) will conform some, but
the outer boot won't.  Basically, if they don't feel really comfortable in
the store don't buy them.

(2) If, after the fact, you discover that you made a mistake a ski shop may
be able to "blow out" the boots the same way they can work with ski boots.

(3) If you ever plan to walk in them (as opposed to ice climbing, for
example) you HAVE to get boots with a lot of rocker in the sole.
Remember... PLASTIC BOOTS DON'T FLEX.

(4) On a hard surface (like a floor) you will feel like Frankenstein's
monster.  On snow or ice (with crampons) they feel just fine.

(5) They weigh a lot.  Mine (size 13 mind you) weigh 3lbs 13oz EACH.

(6) They are just made for crampons.  Actually, they really are made for
crampons.  And, if you have plastic boots, you can use "step in" crampons
which are very convenient.  My crampons weigh 1lb 2oz each, for a total of
4lbs 15oz per foot.

(7) They work well with snow shoes, but they weigh a lot.  My snowshoes
weigh 2lbs 8oz EACH, for a total of 6lbs 6oz per foot.

(8) Most are hinged at the ankle to let you walk (remember... THEY DON'T
FLEX).  For long walks, consider loosening up the laces at the top of the
outer boot so your foot can move INSIDE the boot.  You leave the inner boot
laced up, so there isn't any problem with blisters from loosening the outer
boot.

(9) They are bulky.  My size 13 boots were large enough that most snowshoe
bindings wouldn't fit around them.  I ended up with a pair of Atlas
mountaineering snowshoes with a ratchet binding.  Why... because they fit!
Actually, the binding is extremely convenient with the plastic boots (you
can't use it with pac boots though).  The only downside is that the binding
is (you guessed it...) on the heavy side.

(10) They are completely waterproof.

(11) The inner boot can be worn as camp footwear.

(12) The insulation in the inner boot can be made of several different
materials.  Some boots use an open cell foam, while others use closed cell.
The big advantage of closed cell foam is that the boots will continue to
insulate even though your feet are pumping out water (or if you fall into a
stream).  Open cell foam will get wet from your sweat and will lose
effectiveness over a period of a few days.  On the other hand, vapor barrier
socks are a good idea in cold weather anyway and will keep your sweat from
getting into the insulation.  By the way, wet insulation is a problem for
Sorell style boots as well.

(13) Plastic double boots come in two general "flavors".  Technical boots
(intended for ice climbing) and general mountaineering boots.  Many of the
technical boots are supposedly nearly impossible to walk in.  The Scarpa
Inverno's that I have seem to be considered among the more walkable of the
technical boots.  But they fit, and the others didn't.

(14) Oh... they ain't cheap.

Anyway, why would anyone buy a pair of plastic double boots?

(1) You like that Frankenstein look.

(2) They fit.

(3) You plan to do technical ice climbing.

(4) You plan to use crampons a lot.

(5) You really like to do leg lifts.

I fall mostly into category #2.

As a postscript, to get a feel of how snowshoes and plastic boots feel try
hiking with a pair of light boots and five pound ankle weights.  Actually, I
wear the things around the house to "train" for my winter trips!
Unfortunately, many of the warmer Sorell style boots aren't a whole lot
lighter.  There do seem to be a new crop of much lighter insulated winter
boots out there.  Before you try something unproven, just remember that one
of the big differences between summer and winter hiking is that the margin
of safety is much smaller in winter.  A bad boot choice in summer could cost
you some blisters.  A bad boot choice in winter could cost you your toes...
or worse.

-- Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Delia Sawyer [mailto:jdsawyer@bu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 10:05 PM