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Re: [at-l] Fire feedback!

Hey All,
    Making a fire should not be a good/bad type situation.  There are situations
where making a fire is not appropriate.  There are situations where fires are.  The
problem is not one single fire or even enough fires for an entire boy scout troop.
The problem is that people do not respect fire or it's effects on the world around
it and us.  It is correct that the ashes from one, or even several fires can be
absorbed back into the environment, however only so much can be absorbed.  People
have been reluctant to admit to this reality so many parks and other places where
people enjoy the out doors have fire pits.  Fire pits create a place where the
majority of the impact can be concentrated in one place.  Unfortunately people don't
respect these either and dump trash in them, creating an even greater impact.  One
has to wonder if people are stupid in general or just ignorant.  To me this seems
like common sense stuff.  If any one has any thoughts about how we can curb this
ignorance that cripples our wilderness I'd like to hear them.  I'm tired of walking
into designated campsites and seeing tp and other paper trash littering the ground
around the fire pits.

Eric

Charlie Thorpe wrote:

> Hello All -
>
> I am trying to gather up all the "Fire-related" feedback I was able to spot
> in the many good messages I looked thru.
>
> I said:
>
> >>the amount of ashes and charcoal nubbins builds up and up and often
> >>gets piled out of sight behind nearby veggies...hanging around for a
> >>LONG time;
>
> Hopeful said:
>
> >I have an honest to pete fireplace, no gas logs, and I purposely put the
> >ashes on my veggies.  The ash will disappear in about a month.  I do
> >smooth it out some so it will cover evenly.  Nature is no stranger to
> >fire and ashes.
>
> Gary said:
>
> >Gardeners many times use ash to restore the pH balance to their soil....
>
> Yep...agree 100%!  Ashes can help build up soil (I mix mine in my compost
> pile at home)...to a point (take a look at the long-term results of the
> slash and burn clearing techniques used in some locations around the
> world).  The half-burned nubbins (and fire stains) are another
> story...consider how archaeologists date pre-historic camp sites (they
> carbon-date the remaining nubbins...still around after 10's of thousands of
> years!).
>
> A few ashes widely scattered could certainly be absorbed into the
> ecosystem.  Unfortunately, much ash gets shoveled out of the fire pit and
> dumped in a mound nearby (or the fire-pit itself just gets taller and
> taller <g>).  The mound doesn't get absorbed into the ecosystem and it
> alters the pH balance to the extreme as water leaches thru it (anybody
> remember how great-great-grandma made lye soap?).  The problem, of course,
> is one of allowing concentration to build up beyond the ability of the
> local ecosystem to self-repair.
>
> I said:
>
> >>partially and unburned trash (aluminum foil, especially) litters the
> >>ground around the fire pits;
> >>
> >>half-burned nasties (rotten garbage, critter carcasses, bloody items,
> >>sour grease, used TP, etc.) get left in the fire pit for the next
> >>>>campers to play in;
>
> Hopeful said:
>
> >Trash in a fire pit isn't the result of fire. It is left by an unthinking
> >or irresponsible campers. I have packed out POUNDS of garbage left in
> >firepits and chimneys but none of it was left by the fire.
>
> The fire is to "blame" only because it was in the wrong place at the wrong
> time <g>.  The scenario I described often comes about because folks start
> to consider the fire-pit as a kind of "all-purpose garbage can."  It is
> common in a hi-impact site to see people unthinkingly toss odds and ends of
> trash and garbage into the cold fire-pit...perhaps in the hope that the
> next fire will "make it go away."  Even stuff tossed into a tended fire
> often only gets half-burned...it is HARD to get rid of moist or wadded up
> items.  No fire-pit, no "garbage can" <g>!
>
> Thanks for packing out the garbage...I might have been the next guy to use
> the site! <VBG>
>
> I said:
>
> >>fire-light blinds folks from any chance of seeing the beauty of the
> >>night-time sky and the quiet moon-lit backcountry;
>
> Hopeful said:
>
> >A flashlight will do a number on night-vision. The choice doesn't have to
> >be never have a fire or never see the night sky. If viewing the night sky
> >is desired then stay away from the fire for five minutes and the eyes
> >will adjust. Unless you are my age in which case allow about 10 minutes.
>
> It was an hour or so after dark as I was getting into the wonderful
> grasslands in Mt. Rogers NRA (coming down from the north).  I hiked late
> because my map showed a convenient shelter to aim at, there was an
> incredibly beautiful clear night sky (don't get to see many in the "long
> green tunnel" <g>), and the trail was open enough to hike without a light.
> It was cold (mid-Nov) and I was motingating!
>
> I topped the rise on the opposite side of the slight "gap" from the shelter
> and stopped up short...it looked like a couple of Roman Legions were camped
> down in the valley!  There were fires everywhere...I saw dozens from where
> I stood!
>
> I pulled my watch out of my pocket and checked the day of the week...sure
> enough, it was the weekend <g>.  As I got down into the valley, I noticed
> two things...somebody was cooking coffee and the beautiful night sky was
> gone...too much light pollution from all the fires!  I went over to the
> Scout Troop doing the coffee making and introduced myself...DID enjoy that
> coffee <VBG>.  The night sky later came back only when all the fires had
> died down.
>
> BTW, fires were banned up on top of the next ridge (where the shelter was)
> because the altered habitat from all the wood gathering was responsible for
> getting a local critter (some type of salamander, I think) on the
> endangered list.
>
> I said:
>
> >>fire-light and smoke scares away any interesting and exciting
> >>night-time critters that the fire users might have gotten to see
> >>or hear;
>
> Hopeful said:
>
> >I have to reject this one for sure. I have set by my fire and watched
> >all manor of varmints come to visit. I have wondered if raccoons,
> >opossums and skunks are not as attracted to fire as are moths.
>
> Good catch...I will add the word "wild" in front of "night-time critters."
> Some species loose their shyness and "easily" become habituated to human
> ways as human presence grows in their home (I believe they are tagged as
> "behaviorally corruptible" <g>).  I, too, have seen my share of critters
> that have become relatively "immune" to fire...I wonder if they are
> considered to be truly wild anymore ("varmints" might be a particularly apt
> description <f>)?
>
> I said:
>
> >smoke from the fire takes turns making the fire-users uncomfortable
> >and too-often drifts over to strangle those innocent of any fire >building;
>
> Mary said:
>
> >For many people, fires--especially smokey fires with new wood--sends
> >us into asthmatic fits of coughing and labored breathing.
>
> Once my Troop was doing a winter camp at one of the Civil War battlefield
> parks in Georgia.  It was quite cold and after supper the kids used the
> existing big "group" fire-pit to build a fire to gather around.  We noticed
> that a few of them started looking "funny" and got them over to a lantern
> to see what was wrong.  A few had "puffy-looking" faces and one was also
> having a little trouble breathing.  We grabbed them up and headed for the
> emergency room...fortunately one of my Assistant Scoutmasters thought to
> get some Benadryl into them ASAP (one stayed the night in the hospital -
> all were OK the next day).
>
> It turns out that the kids had added dead poison-ivy (vines?) to the
> fire...those we drug to the hospital were the ones who were the most
> allergic!  I still shudder as I wonder what we would have done if the
> swelling had been internal on the kid who got the worst of the smoke <VBF>.
>
> Paddler made an excellent point when he brought up the issue of using fire
> in emergency situations.  I absolutely agree that the skill of
> fire-building should be learned by EVERYONE who ever ventures away from
> civilization.  There are many who are so concerned about damage from
> campfires that they feel that the "learning" is enough and there should
> never be any need to practice this important outdoor skill.  I tend to
> disagree with these folks...I believe that life-saving skills need to be
> kept current instead of trying to remember "how I did it that time when I
> was a kid" <g>.
>
> All that being said, it doesn't change my mind one iota in my strongly held
> belief that campfires have little place in heavily used areas of our
> backcountry...and that they should be VERY carefully made in those areas
> not yet destroyed.
>
> I did two thru-hikes during which at least a quarter of the time I was
> hiking in cold/wet, freezing/wet, or sub-freezing weather.  I built a total
> of three fires during those hikes...one in the 100-Mile wilderness and two
> between the high passes of the Sierras.  All were made because we were
> concerned that we might have miscalculated on our fuel (one was during a 10
> day resupply and the other two were during a 12 day resupply) and we wanted
> to stretch it a little.  BTW, they WERE mound fires...<g>
>
> It turns out that none of the fires were needed...but I probably would have
> made them again if I were in the same quandary <g>.  My point is...I KNOW
> that we didn't need to build fires to stay comfortable in REALLY ratty
> weather...it was my laziness (didn't want to carry extra fuel) that brought
> the matches out <VBG>.
>
> The point is most eloquently made in Paddler's story that:
>
> "Their inability to light a fire in wet cold conditions put their
> lives in extreme danger."
>
> I must disagree...their lack of appropriate skills and/or poor judgement
> (given the geography, climate, season of the year, etc.) is what got them
> into trouble.  Their inability to light a fire simply eliminated one of the
> possible ways that they could have gotten themselves out of it.
>
> The absolutely classic (and defining!) tale in this genre has to be that
> fantastic short story by Jack London: "To Build a Fire."  I won't reveal
> the ending in case you haven't read it (go read it now!), but I would like
> to point out that the true moral of the story lies not in who died...but in
> who survives!
>
> Thanks for all the good fire feedback!
>
> Trace No Leaves,
>
> - Charlie II
>
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