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Re: [at-l] LNT 9- Shinola
> Hey guys
>
> I can't count the number of times that I have come into a camp site on an
> extended trip and been completely appalled by the amount of toilet paper that has
> been left behind by other campers. It's a shitty (lol) thing to leave laying
> around, make sure to pack it out. I recently saw an ad for something called a poop
> tube, it's designed to be used by climbers. I'm not sure about how it works or how
> it could be applied to backpacking. If any one knows anything about these products
> let us know.
>
> Eric
>
> Charlie Thorpe wrote:
>
> > Hello All -
> >
> > This is the second message dealing with the LNT principle:
> >
> > Properly Dispose of What You Can't Pack Out
> >
> > The previous message covered some of the miscellaneous "minor" obnoxious
> > wastes we humans leave behind us...this posting (in part) covers what many
> > consider to be the most obnoxious waste of all - human feces.
> >
> > I find it very useful to grab a certain factoid and keep it in the back of
> > my mind when I get into this particular discussion: our feces IS a very
> > real biohazard - it can kill us! We don't want to get ANY into our food or
> > water, we don't want to leave ANY on our bodies, and we certainly don't
> > want to share it.
> >
> > In short...we don't want to just hide it - we want to make it GO AWAY!
> >
> > One obvious option, of course, is to take it home and let whatever sewage
> > "system" we have there take care of it. More and more heavily-used and
> > very fragile backcountry ecosystems are demanding such a solution.
> >
> > Some good caver friends of mine have been doing just this for years. They
> > have long had the ethical courage to do "poop-in-a-baggie" or "ammo-box
> > latrine" when they are on extended exploration/survey caving trips.
> > Removing ALL human waste has long been a way that these good folks protect
> > the VERY fragile ecosystems in their (our!) beloved caves.
> >
> > We worked with the local NSS Grotto and developed a "honey bucket" (5 gal
> > "pickle" bucket, tight snap lid, multiple garbage bags, and a few drops of
> > odor mask) that allows our Scouts to do cave camping. We use the honey
> > buckets to bring out ALL human wastes (ours and the other cavers, too <g>)
> > and the kids pride themselves on leaving the cave squeaky-clean (even to
> > picking up the drops of candle wax and spent carbide left by others). We
> > have found that the honey buckets also work well for canoe camping in
> > swamps or on crowded rivers. When we get home, the whole bucket goes into
> > the city garbage for incineration.
> >
> > Climbers, mountaineers, and river rafters are just some of the other
> > backcountry users that have been wrestling with the ethical (and legal!)
> > need to "pack it out" from some of their favorite areas.
> >
> > Guess what...us, too!
> >
> > Ever had to "go" when you were hiking the AT near the Zealand Falls hut in
> > the Whites? My son and I were "drafted" for an interesting job one evening
> > when staying at that hut (thru-hiker rules). We removed the toilet (floor
> > and all) from a stall, put a lid on the 55 gal drum full of crap we found
> > below, used a chain hoist to get it up to floor level, and then attached a
> > handle contraption that allowed a bunch of us to lift it. We walked it
> > thru the busy dining room, down the porch, and around back...where we put
> > it with all the other drums waiting for the chopper to take them out!
> >
> > We discovered that all the huts either have very elaborate sewage systems
> > (leeching beds, etc.) designed to be friendly to the very fragile alpine
> > ecosystems...or they fly the crap out by chopper. Only a small % of the
> > feces in the drums comes from the registered guests or croo at the huts
> > (the rest comes from all the other folks enjoying the AT thru the
> > Whites)...but the guest's fees pay for getting rid of it all! I have the
> > "potty break" numbers for the huts in my files back at home...I do remember
> > that the total number each season is staggering <f>.
> >
> > Many of our most popular backcountry locations are now served by toilet
> > systems that are actually cess pools (holding tanks)...periodically someone
> > drives up (over roads that might not be TOO intrusive <g>) and pumps them
> > out. This extra expense is needed, unfortunately, because it doesn't take
> > long before the "poop-pressure" on some high-use areas completely
> > overwhelms the ability of the local ecosystems to absorb any more pit
> > latrines.
> >
> > Individuals packing out their own feces -
> >
> > "Poop-in-a-baggie" can work. Triple bagging, a drop of odor mask, and VERY
> > careful handling can add up to a very ethical solution to "making the crap
> > GO AWAY" from the backcountry (at least).
> >
> > Some problems:
> >
> > Do we mix the feces (a PRIME critter magnet!) in with our other stuff when
> > we do critter protection (bear bag, bear canister, separate from camp,
> > etc.). How do we make SURE that it doesn't get into our food?
> >
> > Do we have a good way planned out to protect it from all the required
> > handling (packing, unpacking, bear-bagging, repacking, etc.)?
> >
> > What are the realistic chances of our ever convincing the large majority of
> > backcountry users to do this?
> >
> > How do we ethically dispose of a plastic bag full of crap when we finally
> > get it out...especially if no incinerator is around?
> >
> > The solutions listed above at least have a pretty good chance of "making it
> > GO AWAY" - they do allow us to dispose of the feces in the more robust
> > treatment plants at home. The following solutions try hard...but, it is
> > all too easy for something to happen which keeps the feces biohazard around
> > for a LONG time.
> >
> > Pit latrines -
> >
> > Good for being able to "absorb" the wastes of a LOT of folks when they tend
> > to concentrate in one place. Provides a (usually <g>) acceptable solution
> > to the most squeamish or unskilled backcountry user.
> >
> > Some problems:
> >
> > They stink big time...unless they are constructed right (many are not) and
> > someone maintains them well.
> >
> > In some ecosystems they store large amounts of biohazard in a location
> > (sterile mineral soil below the shallow biologically active layer) that is
> > NOT conducive to EVER "making it GO AWAY."
> >
> > In all locations, the very large amount of feces stored is a problem while
> > it sits open and can take a LONG time to cease being an obnoxious waste
> > after it is closed.
> >
> > They leak...sometimes onto the surface land/water and VERY often into the
> > groundwater.
> >
> > They attract critters...which are a nuisance in themselves and also help
> > spread the crap around (onto our sandwich, maybe...<f>).
> >
> > Many locations that backcountry folks like to concentrate in have a limited
> > amount of space available for new latrines (and, therefore, limited ability
> > to stay away from the old ones!).
> >
> > One interesting solution to some of the above problems is to have a human
> > take the crap and compost it (LOTS of work...turns it into a fertilizer
> > used to revegetate over-used areas...removes the biohazard in the
> > process!). It amazed me to discover that the AMC has no problem finding
> > caretakers who are so committed to our backwoods that they will run these
> > composting systems all season for VERY meager pay! Don't get TOO mad at
> > those camp-fees in AMCland...that's how they get paid <g>.
> >
> > The "smear" technique -
> >
> > Some areas have no biologically active soil to deposit the feces in (snow
> > cover, solid rock, desert, etc.). In some very remote areas our crap can
> > be disposed of by smearing it in a thin layer widely over rocks or other
> > hard surfaces which are exposed to the sun (and are well away from local
> > water...200' or more). Ultraviolet light will kill many of the pathogens
> > (in a matter of hours) and the wind will scatter the dried remains.
> > Usually, little smell or visual evidence is left.
> >
> > Some problems:
> >
> > Some pathogens (big "G". etc.) might NOT be killed by the UV.
> >
> > Critters (us too!) get to play in it while the UV is doing its thing.
> >
> > It is getting harder and harder to find a place with so few users that this
> > method would be safe and socially acceptable.
> >
> > What if you have to go in the late afternoon <g>?
> >
> > Can you imagine turning a bunch of young boys loose with handfuls of crap
> > <g>? I do NOT teach this technique to my younger Scouts!
> >
> > *** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *** * * * * * *
> > Ta daaaa...
> > TOILET PAPER
> >
> > The "official" LNT position on TP is:
> >
> > Use it sparingly (if at all)
> >
> > Pack it out.
> >
> > Natural TP -
> >
> > There are many natural objects which can be made to serve the purpose of
> > removing the feces from our body (soft veggies, smooth sticks or stones,
> > snow, etc.). Since these objects have not been packed in, they don't
> > damage the ecosystem if they are not packed out.
> >
> > Pack it out -
> >
> > TP is an unnatural item...it becomes pathogen-laden litter if left on the
> > surface. If dropped in a hole and buried, it often gets dug up (either
> > because a critter is digging up the crap under it for food or because it is
> > scented and the scent is smelled by the critter). Once dug up, it becomes
> > pathogen-laden litter. Packing it out solves this problem.
> >
> > Burn the TP in the cathole -
> >
> > Please do NOT do this! The managing agency folks have asked us to spread
> > the word that they are tired of putting out the forest fires caused by
> > burning TP. It is HARD to catch and extinguish a piece of wind-blown TP
> > when your pants are down around your ankles <VBG>!
> >
> > ***************************************************************
> >
> > I have saved what is often the most practical solution for feces-disposal
> > for the end of the "Properly Dispose..." discussion.
> >
> > I am talking (as everybody knows <g>) about the "cathole."
> >
> > In fact, for no extra charge, I will even throw in a little of my own brand
> > of heresy <VBG>.
> >
> > See you at "LNT 10- Poop Soup"
> >
> > It will be a MAJOR overhaul of a posting that I did on PCT-L and that Kurt
> > copied (in part) to this list.
> >
> > - Charlie II AT (MEGA'93)
> > PCT (Mex@Can'95)
> >
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