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[at-l] Cut it out!

Mary wrote: 
> I geuss I'm asking to get flamed myself, 


Mary - 
First - welcome to the list.  I've no intention or interest in flaming
you, but I think you might be jumping a little too fast and too hard on
people who have something legitimate to say.  If you stick around for a
while I think you'll find that it's a good place to be. But if you can't
stand reality, you might not be here long.  We've managed for 2 years to
keep this list as a place where the people, the topics and the "tone" of
the list are all "real".  And generally, although not always, friendly
and respectful. It's a hiker-friendly place - and it's a place where
free expression has always been welcomed. So - with that in mind - 

I'm one of the people who have apparently been banned from Wingfoot's
list.  While some of the others were banned for expressing their
opinions, I haven't even been told why it happened to me.  I voluntarily
left Wingfoots list in December in order to avoid inflicting verbal
death and dismemberment on someone and I am apparently no longer welcome
on atml.  I think a half dozen attempts to subscribe, with response from
majordomo but no admission to the list tells the story.

Recently there have evidently been several "excommunications" from
Wingfoots list - including at least 3 thruhikers and (I think) Tom
Caggiano.  I have yet to see a rationale for those actions.  In
addition, there has been a string of  "technical problems" that have
been directly linked to disagreements or conflicting opinions with
Wingfoot.  I know about them because a lot of those people have written
to me for advice over the past year or so. 

This is the basis for the present discussion about the future of at-l. 
And Rhymin' Worm's part in it is simply one illustration of the
problem.  If free expression is truly allowable on atml only if it
agrees with Wingfoots opinions then that list is unstable.  If the
opinions of thruhikers (those who have actually done the Trail) are
censored, then that list is useless to those for whom it was intended -
future thruhikers.  And if thruhikers have to live with the threat of
"excommunication" from the list, then the list is useless because the
thruhikers won't bother to express their opinions.  Finally - if this
list (at-l) forbids their expression of frustration and anger and open,
honest opinion - then it's useless as well.  Notice that I've put all
those propositions as "if" statements.  The evidence isn't all in yet -
but I think it's coming.   

I've been on this list for over 2 years now - and I've done what I can
to help others who wanted to thruhike the AT.  And I'll keep on doing
that for the next 14 months if I have a place to do it.  But I can't
help anyone if all I'm allowed to talk about is gear, sore muscles,
sunsets, dirt and recipes.  I rarely talk about gear, never about
recipes, and sore muscles and dirt are an integral part of the
experience and hardly worth talking about.  Now sunsets and emotions -
there you have something worth talking about. I sometimes talk about
sunshine and roses, but I also talk about rain and pain. And about
people and their problems and idiosyncracies - and sometimes about their
disputes.  And the one thing that I won't tolerate is censorship - by a
thruhiker, a list member or a list admin. Most of my flame wars have
been in defense of someone's right to say what they had to say.    

As far as atml is concerned - I thought Wingfoot was becoming a friend,
to me and to others.  I'd still like to think that, but right now I
think I may be disappointed again.

You wanted emotion?  Then pay attention, Mary, because that's what
you're getting here.  Anger, frustration, disappointment - are perfectly
legitimate emotions although I agree that they should be expressed
carefully and not allowed to spill over onto innocent parties.  

Now, for those who haven't discovered it yet, atml is a functionally
closed list while at-l is still open.  Those who have objected to
expanding the function of at-l and Kathy Bilton's page might want to
think about that.  I think it would be a very good idea.  

At present, Wingfoot's lists have some problems.  atml is a closed list
which, I think, may have suddenly acquired a reputation as being a
one-man show.   The WATL list may or may not be useful - by reputation
there's little on it that couldn't be put on an open list.  And AT-98
has basically isolated a large segment of the Class of 98 thruhikers
from the general hiking community.  Having had some time to reflect on
this for the last 4 weeks, I think this will prove detrimental both to
them and to the hiking community at large.  The AT-Clubs list has a
potential usefulness that has yet to be realized and should be
encouraged, but I think the others - including the teen list - have only
served to fragment and isolate the hiker community.  I haven't expressed
this before because I wasn't sure about it. It sounded like such a good
idea 6 months ago.  But, just as an example of the kind of questions
that should be asked - where are the 98 thruhikers on the open lists? 
What are they learning about thruhiking in their isolation ward?  Or are
they just passing nonsense to each other?  And what kind of rapport are
they establishing with the thruhiking community?  In plain English - why
should I care about them when I don't know them?  And why should they
care about us (past thruhikers, section hikers, day hikers) when they
don't know us?  I think someone should at least try to answer those
questions - but right now, I don't have any answers.  But I'd vote to do
some expansion of the at-l role and to do what we can to help Kathy
expand her page - if she's willing.  

There's a lot more to be said about this - but not by me at this time. 
I think it's someone else's turn.  

Walk softly,
Jim

PS - Mary wrote:
> Or worse yet, I will come and visit you with my aunt-in-law, who 
> is rumored to have a very good way in forcing bad boys to eat soap!

I should tell you that truly bad boys will eat the soap, grin --- and
ask for more.  I know - been there, done that.  <VVBG>

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