Tangential Thoughts, was [at-l] Wind Farm Proposed at DeHart Dam

[sloetoe at yahoo.com (Sloetoe)]

--- Bror8588@aol.com wrote:
> I wonder -- Sailboats and other such type vehicles
> use Photosensitive panels and store the electricity
in batteries.
### What they are storing is electro-chemical
potential, not electricity. Most of the time, the
conversion of energy back and forth costs large
portions of the energy to be consumed/lost as heat,
light, noise, exhaust, etc, to the point that half of
what you're harnessing makes it into "storage", and is
then re-subject to losses on conversion back out. (A
very general statement, and entirely dependent on
assuming some sort of "generic" technology!) FWIW, PV
has the least steps to electrical flow, and has the
least losses.

> When I visited Cooper Island in  the 
> British Virgin Islands the whole complex went of
> Battery Power at night when  
> there was no Sun (and a low usage).
### BVI? Hmmmmm. Sounds like maximum weather potential
for PV usage, and minimal space heating requirements,
as well. As long as the area lighting was efficient,
and TV, washer/dryer, dishwasher, and refridgerator
equipment was similarly monitored, it may be LOTS
cheaper than bringing in $40,000,000 worth of
cumbustion turbine (basically, a jet engine racked up
with a generator, producing between 50 and 100 MWs
from natural gas).

> Why wouldn't individual "wind power"  
> devices be effective to build a battery's capacity?
### Assuming by "capacity" you mean available stored
energy, the wind power available to most of us is
simply insufficient. Strong, sustained winds,
preferably from constant direction (so minimal changes
of direction for the device), are just not that
common. Live in North Dakota -- or even Wisconsin,
where Shuu's brother lives, and you get a feel for
wind like few others. Or get up anywhere where trees
are deformed by it. (Hence mountain tops.)
 
> Would the price of the batteries be prohibitive in
terms of investment ratio?
### Short story: yes, generally. (Although, with the
progress of technology, the "generally" grows less
general all the time. Right now on many highways, you
can see emergency phones, construction lights, and
some street lights, being lite by PV. The higher
initial cost of the PV set-up over the expense of
wiring such things to the local grid, or having larger
batteries set up, is felt to be offset by the security
of on-device generation. Cool.)

>  Is there a problem with length of service for a
large capacity battery?
### Don't know. Great question, though, and one
frequently asked by decision makers. But a bit of a
moving target for me, and one that I haven't had to
keep track of. Should be an easy answer to find,
though.
  
> Living in a big city there is no need for this but
> if one lived in a rural  
> area in a small house it might be a way to cut down
> on electricity costs.
### Going "off-grid" is doable, even now, if you set
your house, your living standards, and your equipment
up for it. The cost is not in the operating expense,
of course, but in buying the equipment. And as
electricity prices have stayed pretty low (or even
decreased) in inflation-adjusted terms, it takes a
mighty big leap in technology OR faith to make the
jump.
Here's something I'm looking at for my workplace:
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

### FWIW, my average electricity bill (gas heat/hot
water) is around $20, including two outside lights and
one inside light that are never turned off.

FYI, and off the top of my noodle:
For 1,000 watt-hours of electricity....
0.5 cents      short term costs of hydro power
1.5 cents      short term costs of nuclear power
2.0-4.0 cents  coal/steam plant
8.5-14.0 cents combined natural gas/steam plant
10.0-15.0 cents natural gas plant

This does not count the costs of getting a line to
you, which may be hugiod if you're in the woods far
enough.

PV: free, excepting the annual capital cost of
15.0-50.0 cents, dependent on local solar conditions
and financial terms.
Wind: free, excepting the annual capital cost of
10.0-30.0 cents, dependent on local wind conditions
and financial terms.
Fuel Cell: free on every front, as long as you can get
that gummint grant going.
Cow methane: befriend a farmer, grow big tomatoes.

Basically, these sorts of alternatives are twice as
expensive as "grid" power, until local distribution
costs (the lines to your house) come into play. Then
things look alot nicer, if the timing of "free power"
and your usage is right (or storage can remove the
timing question). "Twice as expensive" may not sound
too good, but consider that it was twice again that,
and not too long ago. It's pretty good, and getting
better. And so more entrepreneurs are going to seek to
put a wind device next to or on top of every cell
tower, including along the Appalachian chain, and the
Rockies, and Capes Cod, Hatteras, Canaveral, etc.