[at-l] (OT) Solar Advances

[ellen at clinic.net (Bob C)]

"Are you saying that system has already paid for itself? I'd 
be curious because Weary and others wrote something about them not being 
economically feasible. I'd be curious about the exact 'return of investment' (ROI) 
figures."

My figures are 20 years old. But I continue to believe that alternative energy should make some kind of economic sense or it is really just a hobby.

For instance, I can put a solar hot water system on my roof for about $7,000. If I mortgage my house at 6% to pay for the installation, the interest alone comes to $420 a year, without ever paying off the principal. Whether solar is a wise purchase depends on what it costs me now to provide my household with hot water. Unfortunately, that is a difficult calculation because the same oil that heats my house also provides hot water. But when I was heating water with electricity, solar collectors were by far a more expensive alternative.

I'm quite sure that a $35,000 array of solar cells on the foggy coast of Maine would never pay for themselves, since my total electricity bill is only about $1,300 a year. That however, may not be true in Wisconsin, which has about the same number of degree days, but more sunny days, especially if Wisconsin really requires utilities to pay solar electricity producers three times the ordinary retail price of electricity for any surplus they generate.

The one kind of solar energy that it pays to install in the north anyway if one is building a new house on a lot with southern exposure is passive solar. One needs only to cluster the normal amount of windows on the south side of a structure to get about 40 percent of one's energy from the sun.

Most solar fans tend to mess up even this free supply of energy by installing too many south-facing windows. The result is overheating during the day and excessive loss of energy at night. (a well insulated wall saves far more energy than the best insulated window) On midcoast Maine the eqivalent of about 7 percent of total floor area of a house in south-facing windows is about right. Any less and supplemental heat will be required even on sunny days. Any more tends to cause overheating on sunny days and excessive losses at night.

Some install expensive and space-consuming "mass" to absorb the surplus daytime energy, but over heating still occurs. And aside from the extra cost of building a structure strong enough to support heat absorbing rocks and water, I question the wisdom of using house space that costs $100-$200 a square foot for such purposes.

Weary 

> ------------Original Message------------
> From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Date: Fri, Dec-2-2005 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [at-l] (OT)   Solar Advances
> 
> In a message dated 11/28/2005 1:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> janl2@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's a labor of love for an electric/electronics geek. Being 
> ahead of the energy cruch curve, he didn't expect it to pay back so 
> soon, but with a monthly check at 3X the usual rate, he has a pleasant 
> little lifetime residual, besides zero energy costs.
> Plus, Wisconsin also kicked back a significant amount as tax credit.
> 
> 
>            ***    Are you saying that system has already paid for 
> itself? I'd 
> be curious because Weary and others wrote something about them not 
> being 
> economically feasible. I'd be curious about the exact 'return of 
> investment' (ROI) 
> figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> >          LED diode household lighting is coming along and all lights 
> should 
> > be switching over to LED in about 10 years. LED's sip electricity.
> 
> yes, my bro also says that's coming to mass market. I'll pass along a 
> good website when I find it that speaks to that, also ways to conserve 
> NOW. There are energy wasters I didn't even know were energy wasters.
> 
> 
>            ***   The program I saw said LED lights are so 
> energy-efficient 
> that even at the present 15 times cost of normal lights they are still 
> cost 
> effective. Their main problem is white light is the hardest to produce 
> through the 
> LED process.
> 
> 
> 
> > The solar slates in my link provide a solar slate roof without any 
> > aesthetic impact. 
> 
> Well, great, then that's what you should use on your house.
> 
>            ***   One word: "Hurricanes". There's only two possible 
> solutions 
> here. First would be small panels that a vigilant alternative energy 
> person 
> could remove easily before a cyclone. The second is a special roof 
> where the 
> cells were beneath wind-proof glass under a steel frame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "what impact do I 
> have, and what am I willing to do about it?"
> 
>            ***    If I had my choice I would start a domestic 
> conservation/alternative energy movement. I'd like to put true free 
> market theory flames to 
> the butts of some of those responsible for 'the ship not turning'. All 
> in the 
> name of the independent original America of course.
> 
> 
> 
>  Prices are coming down as 
> German and Japanese manufacturers surge to the forefront. 
> 
>           The Germans buy the majority of solar cell PV products. 
> Prices are 
> actually going up because there is no single producer of high grade 
> silicon 
> feedstock. The PV industry relies on the discards and extras from the 
> computer 
> chip silicon industry. Computers are booming now so the PV 
> manufacturers are 
> facing a situation of high demand with little supply. Market theory is 
> bs 
> because no silicon manufacturer has stepped in to supply the market. 
> Pure market 
> theory is usually supported by gross curving of reality. Because of 
> this, PV 
> panel prices are rising instead of falling as we were promised.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, there are signs that interest is starting to turn ever so 
> slowly toward conservation and alternatives. After all, many states 
> off serious tax incentives for solar and alternative installations, 
> and a new federal tax credit comes online in 2006.
> 
>            I know Florida has a rebate program where a percentage of 
> the 
> system price is reimbursed. Also, Florida has state laws preventing any 
> 
> neighborhood association from preventing home owners from installing 
> panels on their 
> roofs.
> 
>             Someone of the Bill Gates level has to create several 
> silicon 
> feedstock factories around the world dedicated only to PV production. 
> They have 
> to be run off hydro-dams or geo-thermal so their manufacturing process 
> involves 
> no CO2 production in the fabrication of the solar cells...
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