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[at-l] Re: at-l New England in the summer



You just gave me a great laugh.  How about a cell phone that's turned off, 
lol.

gypsy

<From: ken bennett <bennettk@wfu.edu>
<Subject: [at-l] New England in the summer
<
<We are trying to figure out where to hike this summer. We've spent the last
<two summers hiking in Georgia and North Carolina, and we're ready for a
<change. So, how about New England? What's the best 2-3 week stretch <of AT,
<and what's the best time to hike it? We can go anytime from early June to
<late July, and we'd prefer to avoid 'mud season' and blackflies if at all
<possible.

<Oh, and if anyone can tell me the best cell phone to carry on this stretch,
<I would be grateful. <g>

Ken B

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <at-l-request@backcountry.net>
To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: at-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 30


> Send at-l mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. RE: Cell Phones -- Perception (Shane Steinkamp)
>   2. Re: at-l  Wooly adelgids     Was: Cell Phones -- Perception
>      (gypsy97@bellsouth.net)
>   3. Re: Re: at-l Wooly adelgids Was: Cell Phones -- Perception
>      (Leslie Booher)
>   4. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (Shelly Hale)
>   5. Re: Re: at-l  Wooly adelgids  (Felix)
>   6. Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (Brett)
>   7. New England in the summer (ken bennett)
>   8. RE: Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (Walt Daniels)
>   9. Re: Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (David Hicks)
>  10. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception (Gadog430)
>  11. Re: Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (Jim Bullard)
>  12. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception (J. Lynch)
>  13. RE: New England in the summer (Mara Factor)
>  14. Re: Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (Brett)
>  15. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception (Steve Landis)
>  16. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (rcli4@comcast.net)
>  17. Re: Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT (SWS)
>  18. Cell Phones -- Perception (Steve Adams)
>  19. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (W F Thorneloe)
>  20. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception (william fitzpatrick)
>  21. Re: Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH... (Gadog430)
>  22. RE: Cell Phones -- Perception (Shane Steinkamp)
>  23. Washing a Sleeping Bag (W F Thorneloe)
>  24. Re: Blizzard Warning Pennsylvania New York (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
>  25. Re: Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
>      (Doug Mathews)
>  26. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
>  27. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception (Jack)
>  28. Re: Bater Park to Grow? (RoksnRoots@aol.com)
>  29. Call for National Park in Maine (Snodrog5@aol.com)
>  30. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (Snodrog5@aol.com)
>  31. AT Buffer (J. Lynch)
>  32. Re: Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale (rick boudrie)
>  33. Re: New England in the summer (Snodrog5@aol.com)
>  34. Boston Blizzard report (Mara Factor)
>  35. Re: New England in the summer (Art Cloutman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:19:43 -0600
> From: "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: "Frank Looper" <mapster@charter.net>,
> <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <IDEMKMNHCOAAOJDBMFAMMENMLEAA.shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>> Well he surely must have hit some nerve, else there wouldn't
>> have been so much response.
>>
>> Take that for whatever it's worth.
>
> What it's worth is that we've been around and around on this, and all I 
> ever hear out of a certain party is how worthless we all are.
>
> Despite explaining at great length my concept of wilderness, I'm still 
> unworthy.  I just get frustrated.
>
> Rather than waste bandwidth, see:
>
> http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/philosophy/wilderness.htm
>
> Shane
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:29:04 -0500
> From: <gypsy97@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Re: at-l  Wooly adelgids     Was: Cell Phones --
> Perception
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <008d01c500b0$40fb6af0$6101a8c0@yourah1qbb56u1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I hope they just leave Mother Nature alone to take care of the problem in
> her own way.  What sort of invasive species might the Friends be bringing
> in.  Reminds me of,  "Say, wonder if we cross this African bee with....",
> or "Kudzu might make a nice groundcover".   I don't trust that there is
> enough known about the ultimate effects of bringing some bug that isn't 
> here
> naturally.  Sorry, but I'm a Luddite when it comes to matters like these.
>
> gypsy
>
> <Ya know what I wish?
> <
> <That someone could come up with a cure for gypsy moths, and chestnut
> blight, and that new disease that's killing all the hemlocks in the
> Shenandoah National <Park.  I do trail work out there, and some sections 
> of
> the park look like
> <fallout from Chernobyl with all the dead trees.  Now THERE'S a threat to
> organized wildness for ya.
> <
> <Longhaul
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <If you read the newspaper from the Smoky Mountains that was on a table at
> the SoRuck, you might have seen that they're trying to buy a certain kind 
> of
> bug that <eats only wooly adelgids.  The bugs are $1 each, and the Friends
> of the Smoky Mountains are taking up the funds and buying the bugs.  I 
> made
> a donation at <Sugarlands on my way from the SoRuck to Knoxville.  As I 
> rode
> through Newfound Gap, I found the tree death on the ridgetops shocking.
> anklebear
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:08:01 -0500
> From: "Leslie Booher" <lbooher@pure.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Re: at-l Wooly adelgids Was: Cell Phones --
> Perception
> To: <gypsy97@bellsouth.net>, <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <000701c500b5$b25df5f0$6501a8c0@yourpa86z1i3g7>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Sorry, but I'm a Luddite when it comes to matters like these.
>
> gypsy
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Is that gypsy, as in gypsy moth?  <G>
>
> slippingandslidingbear
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:37:15 -0500
> From: "Shelly Hale" <shellydhale@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: "Frank Looper" <mapster@charter.net>,
> <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <088901c500b1$668daf20$0808b93f@computer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Frank, honey, the only nerve RnR has hit is that of calling the very trail
> internet community that he so gladly takes part in a worthless endeavor 
> with
> little or no value as well as greatly belittling those folks that
> participate in it.  What he can't seem to understand is that he could
> present his view without demeaning everyone and making them turn on him in
> defense.  Yes, he may have some worthy points, but they have lost any
> credence due to the fact that he's arguing now for just the sake of
> argument.
>
> This has finally gotten to the point of Delete Finger Itis.  LOL
>
> Shelly Hale
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Frank Looper" <mapster@charter.net>
> To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
>
>
>> <SHRUG>
>>
>> One good generalization deserves another.
>>
>> I never claimed to be civilized.
>>
>> Maybe that's why I get so pissed off when I am falsely accused otherwise.
>>
>> Shane
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Well he surely must have hit some nerve, else there wouldn't have been so
>> much response.
>>
>> Take that for whatever it's worth.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> at-l mailing list
>> at-l@backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/05
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/05
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:15:58 -0500
> From: Felix <AThiker@smithville.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Re: at-l  Wooly adelgids
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <41F2A66E.40804@smithville.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> gypsy97@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>> I hope they just leave Mother Nature alone to take care of the problem
>> in her own way.  What sort of invasive species might the Friends be
>> bringing in.  Reminds me of,  "Say, wonder if we cross this African
>> bee with....",
>
>
> With a what??  European bee?? What?!?
>
>> or "Kudzu might make a nice groundcover".
>
>
> Are you saying kudzu doesn't make a good ground (car, shed, tree, pole,
> wire, house) cover?
>
>>   Sorry, but I'm a Luddite when it comes to matters like these.
>
> They DO make a good set of luggage...
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:21:20 -0500
> From: "Brett" <blisterfree@isp01.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: "Appalachian Trail" <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>,
> <gypsy97@bellsouth.net>
> Message-ID: <001a01c500b7$8ff91c90$f88a0fce@DB943421>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I examined quite a few hemlocks along the trail during a
> southbound hike last year. IMHO, the wooly adelgid problem
> is overstated. Outside of a few hotspot areas such as SNP
> and portions of southern NE, most hemlocks appear to be in
> fine shape, with no white larval remnants on the branches,
> little greying of needles, and no needle shedding. Those who
> have read the worst-case forecast for this blight might have
> thought all the hemlocks would be about dead these days.
> Hardly the case.
>
> - blisterfree
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Simblissity Ultralight :: One-of-a-Kind Designs for the
> Great Outdoors
> www.simblissity.net
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <gypsy97@bellsouth.net>
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: [at-l] Re: at-l Wooly adelgids Was: Cell Phones --
> Perception
>
>
>>I hope they just leave Mother Nature alone to take care of
>>the problem in her own way.  What sort of invasive species
>>might the Friends be bringing in.  Reminds me of,  "Say,
>>wonder if we cross this African bee with....", or "Kudzu
>>might make a nice groundcover".   I don't trust that there
>>is enough known about the ultimate effects of bringing some
>>bug that isn't here naturally.  Sorry, but I'm a Luddite
>>when it comes to matters like these.
>>
>> gypsy
>>
>> <Ya know what I wish?
>> <
>> <That someone could come up with a cure for gypsy moths,
>> and chestnut blight, and that new disease that's killing
>> all the hemlocks in the Shenandoah National <Park.  I do
>> trail work out there, and some sections of the park look
>> like
>> <fallout from Chernobyl with all the dead trees.  Now
>> THERE'S a threat to organized wildness for ya.
>> <
>> <Longhaul
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> <If you read the newspaper from the Smoky Mountains that
>> was on a table at the SoRuck, you might have seen that
>> they're trying to buy a certain kind of bug that <eats
>> only wooly adelgids.  The bugs are $1 each, and the
>> Friends of the Smoky Mountains are taking up the funds and
>> buying the bugs.  I made a donation at <Sugarlands on my
>> way from the SoRuck to Knoxville.  As I rode through
>> Newfound Gap, I found the tree death on the ridgetops
>> shocking. anklebear
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> at-l mailing list
>> at-l@backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:23:58 -0500
> From: ken bennett <bennettk@wfu.edu>
> Subject: [at-l] New England in the summer
> To: Appalachian Trail <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <BE18127E.166A0%bennettk@wfu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Greetings to the List:
>
> We are trying to figure out where to hike this summer. We've spent the 
> last
> two summers hiking in Georgia and North Carolina, and we're ready for a
> change. So, how about New England? What's the best 2-3 week stretch of AT,
> and what's the best time to hike it? We can go anytime from early June to
> late July, and we'd prefer to avoid 'mud season' and blackflies if at all
> possible.
>
> Oh, and if anyone can tell me the best cell phone to carry on this 
> stretch,
> I would be grateful. <g>
>
> Ken B
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:36:04 -0500
> From: Walt Daniels <wdlists@optonline.net>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: 'Appalachian Trail' <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <0IAQ009TRH44BH@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250
>
>>
>> I examined quite a few hemlocks along the trail during a
>> southbound hike last year. IMHO, the wooly adelgid problem is
>> overstated. Outside of a few hotspot areas such as SNP and
>> portions of southern NE, most hemlocks appear to be in fine
>> shape, with no white larval remnants on the branches, little
>> greying of needles, and no needle shedding. Those who have
>> read the worst-case forecast for this blight might have
>> thought all the hemlocks would be about dead these days.
>> Hardly the case.
>>
>> - blisterfree
>>
> You can add NY and NJ to the list of badly affected areas. For example
> Hemlock Springs Campsite needs to be renamed as there are almost none left
> in that area. I have even considered posting a mile of trail near there as 
> a
> hard hat required area.
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:04 -0500
> From: "David Hicks" <daveh@psknet.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <001e01c500c2$125ae790$a05da441@davidhicks>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hemlocks, being somewhat moisture loving, tend to be scarce along the 
> ridge
> tracking Trail in SWVA.  However, where they are, they tend to be in 
> trouble.
> Within a few hundred yards of the Trail not far from my home, there is a 
> small
> old stand of magnificent trees, which are in deep trouble.  In addition, 
> one
> of my USFS contacts told me that the little bugger appears to be 
> developing an
> appetite for other conifers where they are in heave concentration and have
> devoured the hemlocks.  So, these things scare me.
>
> Chainsaw
>
> BTW -- I, too, tend to be a bit of a Luddite when it comes to these 
> matters
> and related matters such as bio-engineering.  Hey these folk who want to 
> add
> genes from this to that, etc are from similar schools with similar 
> training as
> those who brought us Mad Cow.   I don't trust that there is enough known 
> about
> a lot of stuff that isn't "naturally."
>
> OTOH, worldwide commerce, folk traveling hither-and-yon isn't all that
> natural, ether.  So, OB brings a bug from GA to NC and we all take it much
> father afield, after having eaten foods from all over the world, which in
> their shipping, in all of its mechanics, could have introduced 
> who-knows-what,
> where.  OIOW, as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
>
> BTW2 -- This past summer I met the volunteer who releases the $1.00 a 
> beetle
> in the Park.  He said that $10,000.00 worth of them would fill a 50g 
> Altoids
> tin.  He said that the reason they are so dear is that so far the 
> biologist
> have not found any alternative food source (artificial or natural) on 
> which to
> raise the breeders.  OIOW, they have to raise the adelgids to feed the 
> beetles
> to raise the beetles to fight the adelgids.  For what it is worth, he also
> said that so far they have no evidence of the beetles reproducing in the 
> wild.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brett" <blisterfree@isp01.net>
> To: "Appalachian Trail" <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>;
> <gypsy97@bellsouth.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:21 PM
> Subject: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
>
>
> I examined quite a few hemlocks along the trail during a
> southbound hike last year. IMHO, the wooly adelgid problem
> is overstated. <<
> SNIP
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:40:47 -0500
> From: "Gadog430" <gadog430@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>, "Jim Bullard"
> <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> Message-ID: <064001c500c5$171533f0$55f6c418@fred>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am getting tired of the delete button.
>
> Dawg
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Bullard" <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
>
>
> At 11:11 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, Bob C wrote:
>> >"...Why are we so worried about MacKaye, anyway, when he wasn't even the
>> one who put the trail on the ground?" asks Leslie.
>>
>>Well, I don't think? "WE" are worried about Mackaye at all. RnR simply
>>laments the failure of this and other AT forums to appreciate Mackaye's
>>dream of a wild Appalachian Trail and from time to time criticizes those
>>who seem to prefer a trail that is as civilized as possible.
>>
>>For reasons I find puzzling a few persist in denying that Mackaye ever
>>wanted a wild trail and cite as evidence his initial proposal? in a minor
>>circulation magazine devoted to what was then a fledgling profession of
>>regional planners. In my? answer to OB,? I was simply pointing out the
>>obvious, that though Mackaye? didn't promote a wilderness trail in that
>>one article, he did so in hundreds of subsequent letters, publications and
>>talks continuing over many decades.
>>
>>Weary
>
> Didn't we cover all this in the last round of AT-L bashing? Look, it isn't
> black vs white, wild trail vs totally civilized trail. Just because I am
> willing to accept that cell phones are a fact of modern life and some
> people may even attempt and sometimes succeed in making calls from the
> woods does not mean I want to pave the trail and build 4 stars hotels in
> place of the shelters.
>
> You want to debate (fill in the trail issue du jour)? Try thinking in
> practical terms. You know things we can conceivably do something about and
> PROPOSE REALISTIC SOLUTIONS. [Hint: Stopping the wave of cell phone usage
> *isn't* within the power of AT-L members] Not once, I repeat, not once in
> all these 'AT-ers are out to destroy the trail' threads have I seen a
> realistic argument against whatever (have you noticed that they always
> *against*) or a practical solution proposed. It is all just frustrated
> lashing out at those listers who have the temerity to see things
> differently from those who consider themselves to be the enlightened ones.
> It's past old.
>
> Still sighing Saunterer
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> at-l mailing list
> at-l@backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:11:07 -0500
> From: Jim Bullard <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: David Hicks <daveh@psknet.com>, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20050122160509.01314498@pop-server>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> At 03:36 PM 1/22/2005 -0500, David Hicks wrote:
>>BTW2 -- This past summer I met the volunteer who releases the $1.00 a 
>>beetle
>>in the Park.  He said that $10,000.00 worth of them would fill a 50g 
>>Altoids
>>tin.  He said that the reason they are so dear is that so far the 
>>biologist
>>have not found any alternative food source (artificial or natural) on
>>which to
>>raise the breeders.  OIOW, they have to raise the adelgids to feed the
>>beetles
>>to raise the beetles to fight the adelgids.  For what it is worth, he also
>>said that so far they have no evidence of the beetles reproducing in the 
>>wild.
>
> This reminds me of an infestation of tent caterpillars that was back in 
> the
> '50s. We were burning their nests but they were reproducing faster than
> they could be destroyed that way. They, meaning whomever was in charge of
> such things (I was in grade school), released flies that fed on the
> caterpillars. I don't remember the details but we were told not to swat 
> the
> flies. They were harmless to humans. Once the caterpillars were gone the
> flies died of starvation and that was the end of the infestation.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:13:34 -0500
> From: "J. Lynch" <jplynch@crosslink.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: Gadog430 <gadog430@charter.net>
> Cc: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <41F2C1FD.7030008@crosslink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I've worn out several!!  Better than the alternative however!! :)
>
> Gadog430 wrote:
>
>>I am getting tired of the delete button.
>>
>>Dawg
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jim Bullard" <jbullar1@twcny.rr.com>
>>To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:23 AM
>>Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
>>
>>
>>At 11:11 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, Bob C wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>"...Why are we so worried about MacKaye, anyway, when he wasn't even the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>one who put the trail on the ground?" asks Leslie.
>>>
>>>Well, I don't think? "WE" are worried about Mackaye at all. RnR simply
>>>laments the failure of this and other AT forums to appreciate Mackaye's
>>>dream of a wild Appalachian Trail and from time to time criticizes those
>>>who seem to prefer a trail that is as civilized as possible.
>>>
>>>For reasons I find puzzling a few persist in denying that Mackaye ever
>>>wanted a wild trail and cite as evidence his initial proposal? in a minor
>>>circulation magazine devoted to what was then a fledgling profession of
>>>regional planners. In my? answer to OB,? I was simply pointing out the
>>>obvious, that though Mackaye? didn't promote a wilderness trail in that
>>>one article, he did so in hundreds of subsequent letters, publications 
>>>and
>>>talks continuing over many decades.
>>>
>>>Weary
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Didn't we cover all this in the last round of AT-L bashing? Look, it isn't
>>black vs white, wild trail vs totally civilized trail. Just because I am
>>willing to accept that cell phones are a fact of modern life and some
>>people may even attempt and sometimes succeed in making calls from the
>>woods does not mean I want to pave the trail and build 4 stars hotels in
>>place of the shelters.
>>
>>You want to debate (fill in the trail issue du jour)? Try thinking in
>>practical terms. You know things we can conceivably do something about and
>>PROPOSE REALISTIC SOLUTIONS. [Hint: Stopping the wave of cell phone usage
>>*isn't* within the power of AT-L members] Not once, I repeat, not once in
>>all these 'AT-ers are out to destroy the trail' threads have I seen a
>>realistic argument against whatever (have you noticed that they always
>>*against*) or a practical solution proposed. It is all just frustrated
>>lashing out at those listers who have the temerity to see things
>>differently from those who consider themselves to be the enlightened ones.
>>It's past old.
>>
>>Still sighing Saunterer
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>at-l mailing list
>>at-l@backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>at-l mailing list
>>at-l@backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
>
> James P. ("Jim") Lynch
> jplynch@crosslink.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:46:06 -0500
> From: "Mara Factor" <m_factor@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] New England in the summer
> To: bennettk@wfu.edu, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY103-F1334ACB43A41B3E742D845F0830@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Any chance you can push out the dates a month or so?  June is late enough 
> to
> avoid most of mud season, but you'll be in the thick of black fly season.
> Black fly season usually ends in early to mid-July.
>
> If you can't go later, consider either above treeline travel in the Whites
> where wind can keep the critters at bay, or look for relatively dry
> stretches of trail.  Avoid the low swampy areas in western MA (Jug End Rd.
> to Tyringham and maybe more if it's a wet season).
>
> With a three week stretch though, you're going to have to contend with 
> black
> flies and mosquitoes at some point.  Bring deet.
>
> As for where to go...  If you like rough hiking, there's a lot to be said
> for the Whites and western Maine.  Connecticut, Massachusetts, and even
> southern Vermont are a bit easier on the knees.
>
> Nothing wrong with Vermont though and with three weeks, you could do a 
> Long
> Trail thruhike.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Mara
> Stitches, AT99
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Visit my Travels and Trails web site at:
>
> http://friends.backcountry.net/m_factor
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>>From: ken bennett <bennettk@wfu.edu>
>>To: Appalachian Trail <at-l@backcountry.net>
>>Subject: [at-l] New England in the summer
>>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:23:58 -0500
>>
>>Greetings to the List:
>>
>>We are trying to figure out where to hike this summer. We've spent the 
>>last
>>two summers hiking in Georgia and North Carolina, and we're ready for a
>>change. So, how about New England? What's the best 2-3 week stretch of AT,
>>and what's the best time to hike it? We can go anytime from early June to
>>late July, and we'd prefer to avoid 'mud season' and blackflies if at all
>>possible.
>>
> [...stuff deleted...]  ;-)
>>
>>Ken B
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>at-l mailing list
>>at-l@backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:03:46 -0500
> From: "Brett" <blisterfree@isp01.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: "Walt Daniels" <wdlists@optonline.net>, "'Appalachian Trail'"
> <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <004001c500ce$45bb6860$f88a0fce@DB943421>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hard hat required area?! How fast a die-off are you seeing?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Simblissity Ultralight :: One-of-a-Kind Designs for the
> Great Outdoors
> www.simblissity.net
>
>
>> You can add NY and NJ to the list of badly affected areas.
>> For example
>> Hemlock Springs Campsite needs to be renamed as there are
>> almost none left
>> in that area. I have even considered posting a mile of
>> trail near there as a
>> hard hat required area.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:09:03 -0500
> From: Steve Landis <s.landis@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: AT-L <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <41F2CEFF.4070905@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> On 1/22/2005 3:40 PM, Gadog430 wrote:
>> I am getting tired of the delete button.
>>
>> Dawg
>
> You can read the list on local newsgroups.  No mail, nothing to delete.
> http://www.backcountry.net/usenet.html
>
> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:41:26 +0000
> From: rcli4@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: "Shelly Hale" <shellydhale@earthlink.net>
> Cc: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID:
> <012220052341.1271.41F2E4A60002F3E0000004F72205886172CB07040C9D@comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> What you folks don't understand is that R-n-R is a little old man living 
> on a destroyed wetlands, filled in to make high dollar real estate of a 
> barrier island.  He sold his high priced northern home and bought in 
> Florida before the land boom.  He is surrounded by folks that he has 
> nothing in common with.  He has his little piece of destroyed environment 
> and he has seen the error of his ways and doesn't want anyone else to do 
> what he did.  Take it easy on him.  He is to be pitied not attacked.  Cut 
> him some slack. He can't help it.
>
> Clyde
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
>
>> Frank, honey, the only nerve RnR has hit is that of calling the very 
>> trail
>> internet community that he so gladly takes part in a worthless endeavor 
>> with
>> little or no value as well as greatly belittling those folks that
>> participate in it. What he can't seem to understand is that he could
>> present his view without demeaning everyone and making them turn on him 
>> in
>> defense. Yes, he may have some worthy points, but they have lost any
>> credence due to the fact that he's arguing now for just the sake of
>> argument.
>>
>> This has finally gotten to the point of Delete Finger Itis. LOL
>>
>> Shelly Hale
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Frank Looper"
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > One good generalization deserves another.
>> >
>> > I never claimed to be civilized.
>> >
>> > Maybe that's why I get so pissed off when I am falsely accused 
>> > otherwise.
>> >
>> > Shane
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Well he surely must have hit some nerve, else there wouldn't have been 
>> > so
>> > much response.
>> >
>> > Take that for whatever it's worth.
>> >
>> > Frank
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > at-l mailing list
>> > at-l@backcountry.net
>> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/05
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/05
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> at-l mailing list
>> at-l@backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:42:59 -0500
> From: "SWS" <sws4024@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Wooly adelgids & hemlock health along the AT
> To: "'Appalachian Trail'" <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <00d001c500dc$1b6f6ee0$f42c9e18@D48FT131>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250"
>
> I think they are also using some type of Asian or Japanese ladybug (not 
> native to America) in
> the Pisgah National Forest areas...dropping them from 
> airplanes...apparently they only eat the
> adelgids....we find hundreds of ladybugs in late fall and early winter 
> around here....
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:32:44 -0500
> From: "Steve Adams" <stephensadams@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY18-F175A1164762B808D05C9E3B7840@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> I read and deleted all other threads, saving this thread for one complete
> read-through.  This is an interesting thread in only a few sad ways.
>
> RnR is accused of diminishing people.  The only accusation I've read from
> him is his disappointment that there are those of us, who are both hikers
> and active on a hiking list, who cannot fathom how carrying a cell phone
> into a wild environment diminishes our experience and perhaps the 
> experience
> of others.
>
> Some of us have taken offense at him for voicing his disapproval, feigning
> we have been personally vilified, but have gone on to libel him for all
> sorts of specific offenses which I have never observed.
>
> Some ask what have we done about cell phones, and cannot conceive any 
> effect
> we can possibly have.  If this is a standard, what have we ever done about
> anything?   Ridge runners are merely educators and advocates of hiking
> etiquette.  Isn't that positive?  Doesn't that have some desirable effect?
> Can't we have similar effect upon other hikers, so long as we don't
> infuriate them?
>
> Some contend RnR's points are really about very little, if not nothing. 
> In
> this thread, I have read very few posts which have said anything.
>
> Some complain they are tired of this thread, and proclaim they won't 
> address
> this thread again.  Their posts continue to appear.
>
> Just some observations.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:13:50 -0500
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050122205950.070202b0@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
> x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7FA24E27
>
> Clyde writes: "He sold his high priced northern home and bought in Florida
> before the land boom. He is surrounded by folks that he has nothing in
> common with. He has his little piece of destroyed environment and he has
> seen the error of his ways and doesn't want anyone else to do what he did.
> Take it easy on him. He is to be pitied not attacked. Cut him some slack.
> He can't help it."
>
> While I agree that he is to be pitied, I do not see a reason to cut him an
> inch of slack.
>
> He came into this community to lay waste on the camaraderie and creativity
> it enjoyed. He waged a campaign of ultra-purism against the AT community,
> while hiding behind a fig leaf of idolatry of Benton MacKaye. What he 
> terms
> as trail advocacy is little more than narcissistic blather about his
> monomaniacal interpretations of an early AT proponent.
>
> He has the unmitigated gall to accuse the occasional cell phone user of
> trail destruction, while living on a barrier island and a destroyed
> wetland. He has the hypocrisy to endorse arson by idiots, in the vain hope
> that this would lead to environmental terrorism. I believe he found it
> acceptable to repair own his hurricane damaged home, on that barrier 
> island.
>
> The AT community had something to offer him in common. His perception -
> which becomes his reality - is that every single one of us are
> environmental nazis who hate WF and would sooner defecate in a water 
> source
> than help to protect our trail.
>
> If he genuinely can't help it, I'll be glad to offer him some referrals.
>
> OrangeBug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:20:40 -0800 (PST)
> From: william fitzpatrick <jestbill@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <20050123022040.69389.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I still haven't seen a post critical of organizing or publicizing trail 
> magic.
> How exactly is a cell phone a greater threat to "organized wildness" than
> organized trail magic?
>
> If cell phone towers are the problem, why is it OK to have web cams in
> wilderness areas?
>
> Lacking any such consisitency, seems to me the argument is no longer about
> "wilderness" or the "hiking community" but about a certain fad in personal
> communication devices that will likely pass in a few years.
>
> Interesting how people who actually don't care one way or another about 
> the
> subject under discussion seem more than willing to try to set rules for 
> how it
> should be conducted.
>
> Old fashioned, non PC joke:(told with a fake Italian accent)
> As they told the Pope concerning birth control: you no playa the game, you 
> no
> maka the rules.
>
> 10-4 Good Buddy.
>
> --- Steve Adams <stephensadams@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I read and deleted all other threads, saving this thread for one complete
>> read-through.  This is an interesting thread in only a few sad ways.
>>
>> RnR is accused of diminishing people.  The only accusation I've read from
>> him is his disappointment that there are those of us, who are both hikers
>> and active on a hiking list, who cannot fathom how carrying a cell phone
>> into a wild environment diminishes our experience and perhaps the 
>> experience
>> of others.
>>
>> Some of us have taken offense at him for voicing his disapproval, 
>> feigning
>> we have been personally vilified, but have gone on to libel him for all
>> sorts of specific offenses which I have never observed.
>>
>> Some ask what have we done about cell phones, and cannot conceive any 
>> effect
>> we can possibly have.  If this is a standard, what have we ever done 
>> about
>> anything?   Ridge runners are merely educators and advocates of hiking
>> etiquette.  Isn't that positive?  Doesn't that have some desirable 
>> effect?
>> Can't we have similar effect upon other hikers, so long as we don't
>> infuriate them?
>>
>> Some contend RnR's points are really about very little, if not nothing. 
>> In
>> this thread, I have read very few posts which have said anything.
>>
>> Some complain they are tired of this thread, and proclaim they won't 
>> address
>> this thread again.  Their posts continue to appear.
>>
>> Just some observations.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> at-l mailing list
>> at-l@backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>
>
> =====
> Want to be respected?  Be respectable.
> JestBill  Ga--->Me '03
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:24:14 -0500
> From: "Gadog430" <gadog430@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
> To: "Richard Mann" <yugrekih@yahoo.com>,
> <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <07fb01c500f2$bdbf3e80$55f6c418@fred>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We would just like to inform you that the ladies have taken over Saturday
> night dinner at the SORuck from now on. It seems the new tradition is
> Meatloaf night with the Girls.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dawg and The Girls
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Mann" <yugrekih@yahoo.com>
> To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:04 PM
> Subject: [at-l] Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
>
>
>> Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
>>
>> I'll answer to any of 'em...
>>
>> Mr. Mann and family
>>
>> =====
>> Pittsburgh, Barb, Ryan, and Wilson the Trail Dog
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> at-l mailing list
>> at-l@backcountry.net
>> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:29:29 -0600
> From: "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
> Subject: RE: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <IDEMKMNHCOAAOJDBMFAMMEPMLEAA.shane@theplacewithnoname.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Some contend RnR's points are really about very little, if not
>> nothing.  In this thread, I have read very few posts which
>> have said anything.
>
> I'd respond to that, but OB seems to have said it...
>
> One day you'll get tired of being unworthy too.
>
> Shane
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:44:48 -0500
> From: W F Thorneloe <thornel@attglobal.net>
> Subject: [at-l] Washing a Sleeping Bag
> To: at-l@mailman.backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050122213330.06661660@pop3.attglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
> x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7FA24E27
>
> Just in case anyone wondered just how I felt about something....
>
> Today, I took my 7 year old Western Mountaineering PUMA bag (zero or so)
> back to it's foster home, and complained about the stuck zipper. For a
> couple of years, the zipper was crossed down at the foot end, and I
> couldn't open it up and chill my tootsies. I had pulled at it, but was
> afraid of breaking the zipper or tearing something.
>
> Of course, the guy at High Country Outfitters pulled on it for two 
> minutes,
> fixed it and commented on the need for it to be cleaned.
>
> So, roughly $9 for a bottle of Nikwak down soap and off to the local coin
> laundry with the front loading washers and dryers. (Do List: learn Spanish
> so I can listen to TV in those places).
>
> Well, I followed bottle instructions as closely as if it were instructions
> on the safe use of Aleve. I wiped out the detergent residue, crammed in 
> the
> sleeping bag and sat for 30 minutes for the cycle to end. I had a dandy 
> wet
> by clean sleeping bag, of totally no use to anyone given that it was
> absolutely collapsed and wet.
>
> Into the dryer. 30 minutes on medium heat with 2 tennis shoes. Wet and
> clumpy. Another 20 minutes. No change. Twenty minutes further. Ho hum.
> Twenty minutes on High, Dryer, but still clumping. Twenty more minutes on
> High - pretty dry - they are all looking at me. Time to take it home and
> use that dryer.
>
> I have it dry now, non clumpy and lofting freely. It seems about a pound 
> or
> two lighter. It is getting windy and cold outside tonight. No, I am not
> going to test it.
>
> OrangeBug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:01:37 EST
> From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Blizzard Warning Pennsylvania New York
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <142.3dc84247.2f246d91@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
>
>          20-30 inches expected Cape Cod and islands. Storm heaviest 
> towards
> SE Massachusetts.
>
>        Record lows in Maine of -36* interior -25* Bangor...
>
>
>          32* expected here in Florida tomorrow night!
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:10:59 -0500
> From: Doug Mathews <mathews@uga.edu>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
> To: "Gadog430" <gadog430@charter.net>
> Cc: At-list <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID:
> <6.2.0.14.2.20050122220834.03e13eb0@ipostoffice.worldnet.att.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Gang,
>
> That sounds like the plan to me.....I certainly enjoyed that meal a lot.
>
> I do wonder though if we aren't "imposing" on a few folks for most of the
> Ruck?  Maybe we can devise a way to "share" some of the activities that go
> on that makes the Ruck so successful.  It just seems to me that a few a re
> doing the lions share of the work, and you know who you are!
>
> Thanks for a great Ruck.
>
> Mainframe
>
> At 09:24 PM 1/22/2005, you wrote:
>>We would just like to inform you that the ladies have taken over Saturday
>>night dinner at the SORuck from now on. It seems the new tradition is
>>Meatloaf night with the Girls.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Dawg and The Girls
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Richard Mann" <yugrekih@yahoo.com>
>>To: <at-l@mailman.backcountry.net>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 12:04 PM
>>Subject: [at-l] Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
>>
>>
>> > Pitts-Pittsy-Pittsia-Pittsburg-Pittsburgh-PGH...
>> >
>> > I'll answer to any of 'em...
>> >
>> > Mr. Mann and family
>> >
>> > =====
>> > Pittsburgh, Barb, Ryan, and Wilson the Trail Dog
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > at-l mailing list
>> > at-l@backcountry.net
>> > http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>> >
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>at-l mailing list
>>at-l@backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:48:29 EST
> From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1b9.b833a7f.2f24788d@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/22/2005 9:17:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> thornel@attglobal.net writes:
> He came into this community to lay waste on the camaraderie and creativity
> it enjoyed. He waged a campaign of ultra-purism against the AT community,
> while hiding behind a fig leaf of idolatry of Benton MacKaye. What he 
> terms
> as trail advocacy is little more than narcissistic blather about his
> monomaniacal interpretations of an early AT proponent.
> *
> *
> *
>
>           This is stupid and a perfect example of the point I was making.
>
>
>           To anyone with an educated understanding of the AT and MacKaye's
> involvement his mention is much more pertinent than the above personal 
> attack
> posing as Trail opinion indicates. As Weary alluded a perfectly valid and 
> sound
> history of Benton MacKaye's involvement with the Trail he created exists 
> out
> there in the real world. Its merit and value was enough that many people 
> over
> the years aspired to it and put together one of the greatest volunteer
> conservation projects in the world. I honestly feel sorry for anyone whose 
> wit or
> intellectual ability limits their references to Benton MacKaye, the 
> creator and
> inspiration for the Appalachian Trail, to "fig leaf idolatry" or other 
> such
> unsophisticated slanders.
>
>         It's obvious that some people have a personal bent that precludes
> them from understanding AT conservation. This becomes clear when simple 
> matters
> commonly understood about the Trail are referred to in overblown and 
> hostile
> ways like "ultra-purism" etc. My impulse is to call these persons the 
> clueless
> blowhards they are, but that would only feed the fire and it appears to be
> useless against blindness anyway. But the evidence of this is seen in the 
> simple
> fact that these wilderness haters never mention ANYTHING about valid and 
> known
> ATC-level wilderness ethics. So, it becomes clear that ANY wilderness 
> goals
> or guidelines ala ATC are labeled "elitist", "ultra-purist", or 
> "extremist" by
> persons who are more interested in guarding their own level of disconcern 
> than
> they are the AT.
>
>          This is exactly what I was pointing out in my criticism. I 
> believe
> these posts pretty much prove what I was saying. The simple proof is to 
> ask
> "OB" to describe any of the simple wilderness ethics ATC upholds as part 
> of its
> charter and he won't be able to do it. Instead you get these hateful 
> attacks
> for simply pointing out ATC Trail values as registered in their 
> guidelines.
> Since those guidelines are valid and on record, and since they derive 
> directly
> from MacKaye, I can only take this resentment over stating their 
> importance to
> be hostility towards Trail wilderness values as I said (that is, an 
> aggressive
> attempt to dumb down the AT amongst internet Trail groups). The most
> outstanding thing is that OB doesn't consider his efforts to be any kind 
> of attack. My
> point stands - mention valid ATC wilderness values on the internet and 
> you'll
> be attacked. It's ignorance - but mostly it's the AT doing what Benton
> intended...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:48:20 -0500
> From: "Jack" <camojack@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception
> To: <at-l@backcountry.net>
> Message-ID: <024301c500fe$61ca7ac0$6f8f5344@JACK>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> While a number of folks have been sniping at each other regarding their 
> personal "vision" of what the A.T. should or should not be, based on their 
> own or others' opinions, consider this.
>
> To achieve total compliance with the "Americans with Disabilities Act", 
> the entire trail would have to be graded and resurfaced, such that someone 
> in a wheelchair could conceivably attempt a thru "hike".
>
> How would THAT be for "organized wildness"?
>
> IM[NS]HO, some people need to lighten up; others should get more serious.
>
> Ultimately however, each of us will do as we please, for as long as we 
> can...
>
> -"Camo" (Who'll be at the PA Ruck next weekend)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:16:34 EST
> From: RoksnRoots@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Bater Park to Grow?
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <159.490d7cf7.2f247f22@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/7/2005 2:45:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Snodrog5@aol.com writes:
> *
> *
> *
> The Trust for Public Land and land preservationist Roxanne Quimby are 
> working
> on a deal that would transfer about 18,000 acres of land next to Baxter 
> State
> Park into Quimby's possession and could eventually add Katahdin Lake to 
> the
> state park.
> *
> *
> *
>
>          Too bad somebody couldn't protect the buffer around the AT where 
> it
> was designed to be protected but somehow isn't...
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:50:53 EST
> From: Snodrog5@aol.com
> Subject: [at-l] Call for National Park in Maine
> To: at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <1ea.34b81a7d.2f24872d@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The 'Maine' source for comprehensive Maine environmental news is the Maine
> Environmental Policy Institute's website: http://www.meepi.org/
>
> recent stories linked:
>
> Creating a national park in the state's north woods could help reawaken 
> the
> nation's slumbering conservation movement (Portland Press Herald, 1/21/04)
> ROCKPORT ??" One of Maine's largest individual landowners says she 
> believes
> that creating a national park in the state's north woods could help 
> reawaken the
> nation's slumbering conservation movement. "We need to sell the agenda of 
> the
> environment to the 80 percent of Americans now who don't know and don't 
> care,"
> said Roxanne Quimby, who made a fortune as founder of Burt's Bees, an
> all-natural cosmetics business.
>
> Maine forestlands in times of change
> Friday, January 21, 2005 - Bangor Daily News
> ROCKPORT - Maine's North Woods are in a time of transition with huge 
> swaths
> of land changing hands almost weekly, paper mills struggling to survive in 
> a
> new global market, and multimillion-dollar homes being constructed inside 
> a vast
> wilderness. But precisely what Maine should do to shape the future of this
> northwesterly third of our state inspired debate among six prominent
> conservationists at Thursday's annual winter meeting of the Maine State 
> Bar Association.
> Roxanne Quimby, co-founder of Burt's Bees and, more recently, the best 
> known
> and most vilified proponent of a Maine Woods National Park, said Thursday 
> she
> still believes federal recognition would give the region the best chance 
> of
> protecting its ecological and economic interests.
> "A national park brings national attention," Quimby said, citing a park's
> ability to "sell" environmental values to the majority of Americans who 
> don't
> consider the natural world a priority. "It's about selling the environment 
> to a
> population that's either in denial or asleep at the wheel," she said
>
> ---------------------
> Teej
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:57:25 EST
> From: Snodrog5@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <24.69060bf7.2f2488b5@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:03:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> RoksnRoots@aol.com writes:
> .
> Since those guidelines are valid and on record, and since they derive
> directly
> from MacKaye, I can only take this resentment over stating their 
> importance
> to
> be hostility towards Trail wilderness values as I said (that is, an
> aggressive
> attempt to dumb down the AT amongst internet Trail groups).
> ----------
>
> R&R, please quote those valid and on record guidelines, and the MacKaye
> writings they derive from, so that we all may become less dumb.
>
> Or do you just plan to whine about it on the Internet?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:26:35 -0500
> From: "J. Lynch" <jplynch@crosslink.net>
> Subject: [at-l] AT Buffer
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <41F3439B.2010804@crosslink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> The ATC has recently changed its name from the AT Conference to the AT
> Conservancy.   According to a trail club newsletter, "The ATC is now
> more involved in land conservation... ".  This will hopefully relate to
> buffer protection.
>
> RoksnRoots@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>          Too bad somebody couldn't protect the buffer around the AT where 
>> it
>>was designed to be protected but somehow isn't...
>>
>>
>>
>>*
>>_______________________________________________
>>at-l mailing list
>>at-l@backcountry.net
>>http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
>
> James P. ("Jim") Lynch
> jplynch@crosslink.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:49:10 -0500
> From: "rick boudrie" <rickboudrie@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] Cell Phones -- Perception...the finale
> To: Snodrog5@aol.com, AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY104-F316D860E2FC5E989185B3BE840@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>>TJ asked another to  "please quote those valid and on record guidelines"
>
> http://www.appalachiantrail.org/protect/pdfs/LMPG_4ATexper.pdf
>
> The ATC is hardly speaks The Word, but its difficult for me to disagree 
> with
> any  of that.  Do you? To my way of thinking, some things that seem so 
> great
> when looked at "logically", are less so when looked at a bit more
> spiritually.  Thats just me.
>
> I put alot of things into that catagorry-- big beautifull shelters, trails
> to camps in the 100 Mile Wlderness, instant communication down the Trail,
> hiker alumni doling out good cheer in Baxter, and much more.
>
> It just a point of view.  Things change and not always for the better.  To
> my way of thinking, the ATC's vision has been a rather good one over the
> years, and I'd hate to see that core philosophy shift to that of those who
> would see ice cream trucks at every road crossing as all good.
>
> Just my .02.
>
> Rick B
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 33
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:11:07 EST
> From: Snodrog5@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [at-l] New England in the summer
> To: bennettk@wfu.edu, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <20.3cdfce8e.2f25269b@aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> No blackfly worries on a hike from Abol Bridge to Caratunk if you start
> around May 15th. By the first week of June you'll be glad of that headnet, 
> though.
> Katahdin will not be open until Memorial Day weekend if the trend holds.
> You'll see the North woods waking up from Winter, fiddlehead ferns, 
> warblers, new
> born deer and moose, trillium and lady slippers - Maine in early spring is
> wonderful. The streams will be down from the April snow melt, but still 
> lots
> higher than the rock hops September nobos find. If you want to start out 
> with a
> site on the AT at Katahdin Stream Campground on opening day (May 15th) you 
> should
> check www.baxterstateparkauthority.com for reservation info. That stretch 
> of
> trail, that time of year, is perhaps my favorite place on Earth. If you 
> decide
> on later in the summer, the second half of August *anywhere* from 
> Glencliff
> to Katahdin would delight any hiker.
> Teej
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:22:12 -0500
> From: "Mara Factor" <m_factor@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [at-l] Boston Blizzard report
> To: AT-L@Backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <BAY103-F3981A1434C0ABFBF6D203FF0840@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Shoveled nine inches of snow before I went to sleep last night.  Just got
> back in from shoveling another 15 inches or so.   I'm not sure how much of
> that fell from the storm or blew off all the houses around here.  Blizzard
> conditions still predominate with very high winds, low visibility, and 
> lots
> of blowing and drifting snow.  Some of the drifts I was shoveling were 
> over
> three feet.  I haven't even tackled my car yet which is parked in the
> street.  While the wind has kept the car mostly clear, the drifts around 
> the
> car are in the three feet range.
>
> Thankfully, it's still very cold (10 F) and the snow is very light.   Of
> course, that means that every time you throw a shovelful of snow, half of 
> it
> blows back onto the sidewalk/driveway/me/etc.  The front yard is very 
> small
> and the huge pile of snow is now in the six foot range for the length of 
> the
> yard.
>
> The storm looks to be  through most of eastern Massachusetts but with the
> easterly and northeasterly winds, we're getting all the ocean effect snow 
> on
> top of the storm and expecting quite a few more inches.
>
> The snow is too dry for a snowman or a snowball fight.  It's too windy
> anyway.  Perhaps tomorrow I'll grab my snowshoes or backcountry skiis and
> head for the Middlesex Fells.  Anyone local want to join me?
>
> Mara
> Stitches, AT99
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Visit my Travels and Trails web site at:
>
> http://friends.backcountry.net/m_factor
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:46:31 -0500
> From: Art Cloutman <art@crystalacresnh.com>
> Subject: Re: [at-l] New England in the summer
> To: ken bennett <bennettk@wfu.edu>, at-l@backcountry.net
> Message-ID: <a06010201be198460e40b@[192.168.0.2]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
>>Greetings to the List:
>>
>>We are trying to figure out where to hike this summer. We've spent the 
>>last
>>two summers hiking in Georgia and North Carolina, and we're ready for a
>>change. So, how about New England? What's the best 2-3 week stretch of AT,
>>and what's the best time to hike it? We can go anytime from early June to
>>late July, and we'd prefer to avoid 'mud season' and blackflies if at all
>>possible.
>>
>>Oh, and if anyone can tell me the best cell phone to carry on this 
>>stretch,
>>I would be grateful. <g>
>>
>>Ken B
>
>
> How about all of NH.  Start at Hanover and end in Gorham.  It should
> take a little over two weeks and offer spectacular views and
> challenging climbs.  Early June provides black fly challenges and
> late July offers crowds.  Heat can also be an issue in late June and
> all of July.  Pick your poison/pleasure.  Even though I have many
> years experience hiking in NH I still found it to be the most
> beautiful and exciting part of my AT2004 thru hike.
>
> Gabby Art Cloutman
> -- 
>
> Life is Good!!!
> Art Cloutman
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> at-l mailing list
> at-l@backcountry.net
> http://mailman.hack.net/mailman/listinfo/at-l
>
>
> End of at-l Digest, Vol 21, Issue 30
> ************************************