OT My Last comment on smoking (was) RE: Sensitive to smoke (was)RE:[at-l] Smoking and drinking

[jbullar1 at twcny.rr.com (Jim Bullard)]

In this case roughly 15% of society is asking 85% of society to adjust to their smoke. Is second-hand smoke really harmful? Smokers say 'no' and quote studies to back them up or can find flaws in those that say 'yes'. Those who object to second hand smoke can do the same. It is pretty firmly established however that the compounds in cigarette smoke (which is *not* the same as wood smoke which is also not good for you albeit in different ways) are harmful to human health. From a purely logical basis I cannot comprehend how smoke that is harmful to the smoker is not harmful when breathed by someone not holding the cigarette. It's the same damn smoke. While the non-smoker may get less smoke, that in itself is no assurance that it isn't harming them. Some people's systems are more prone to injury from smoke, a point smokers revel in when reminding non-smokers of those who smoked all their lives and lived to be 90 without getting cancer. The difference is that they chose to smoke. "Freedom ends where the other guy's nose begins." When it comes to smoking that is literally true. I don't want to smoke. When you insist on smoking around me, you veto my freedom of choice.

As for allergies to perfume, hair spray, etc., if you are aware that your choice of cosmetics is creating a problem for co-workers, friends or family, the courteous thing to do is to change it. After all the point to such things is to be more attractive to others. Insisting on wearing a scent or engaging in something that makes you repulsive to people you have to work with/like/care about/love is totally illogical.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: William Neal 
  To: 'J Bryan Kramer' ; AT-L List (E-mail) 
  Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:42 AM
  Subject: My Last comment on smoking (was) RE: Sensitive to smoke (was) RE:[at-l] Smoking and drinking


  Should we let such people die?

  Suppose a person is in the Smokies.  They believe that they are going to be fine.  It is early in the year.  The winter has been unseasonably warm.  Predicitions are that it will remain warm.  And the records show that for the past few years, thick, heavy, long-lasting snow has been rare. (Like the rain over the last few years in the SE).

  They have only had limited experience at winter camping -- mainly state or local parks.  Of course there is always the first time for everyone.  The weather looks fine.  They have all they think they need.

  Then an unexpected shift in the winter brings on a series of blizzards.

  Should we ignore them and let them turn Donner?

  My friend "knew" he was cursed.  "Knew" he was dying.  It was illogical to us and to him -- he was bright and well educated (remember I said he was doing post-doc work?).  Still he was "culturized" to voodoo (just as all of us have been culturized in various ways to various things) and so he "knew" it was true.  

  We responded in the best way possible.  It apparently helped save his life.  Sure we could have insisted he listen to his doctors, but they could do nothing to make him better.  And they could find nothing to account for his symptons.  And they agreed that he was dying -- which is probably why they and the nurses disappered when we brought the root doctor in.

  And, again, not all people who become sensitive to tobacco (and maybe later to other things) are non-thinking.  Some actually have physical reasons for being sensitive.  For instance, I became physically sensitive to tobacco back when they still gave out cigarette in vet hospitals and kids could buy cigarettes: I remember in NC buy cigs out of a vending machine for 25 cent or so.  And all the manufactures had halter top girls in short-shorts handing out mini-packs at the beach.  And my father occassionally smoked big stoogies.  Tobacco was as common as Moon-Pies in South Carolina and the rest of the US.  The anti-smoking drive had not really started when I became sensitive to smoking.

  As to the question as to whether society should adjust their behavior to the irrational behavior (or rational behavior) of others?  That is what evolution in society is all about.  And more importantly, what good manners is all about.  After all there was a time and a place when older men and older women were expected and encouraged to intiate young girls and boys into sex.  And young unmarried girls were expected to have a couple of babies before getting married.*

  Today most of society in the US is against smoking or does not like smoking.  And smokers can find ways to smoke without too much trouble and pain.  Unless they are so ADDICTED that they have to have a smoke NOW -- I was at one time so I sympathize.  But if they are addicted, are they not the more irrational ones?

  William, The Turtle

  *    I remember reading about this years ago.  Apparently it was common in some areas of Pacifica when the various islanders were isolated -- more or less.  It was felt that it was humane to have older people teach sex to younger people by having sex with them.  Also, since children were a valuable resource for the future, it was believed that before a husband (and the entire family group) invested in a new wife or the first wife, that the woman prove she was capable of having children -- preferably at least two to prove that she was capable of having more.
      And later I was told that this was probably not uncommon in other parts of the world when humans were more or less isolated even on land.
      I don't know of any place that allows that today.  Most discourage that.  And it some cases, all of that is downright illegal.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: J Bryan Kramer [mailto:jbryankramer@msn.com]
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:21 PM
  To: William Neal; AT-L List (E-mail)
  Subject: RE: Sensitive to smoke (was) RE: [at-l] Smoking and drinking


    yes, and should the rest of society have to adjust their behavior to suit his superstitions? This progresses from tobacco to things like perfumes and then to all synthetic chemicals in the minds (non-functional certainly) of these people. Don't encourage them.

    Bryan

    PS    Once, long, long ago, in a land far, far away, I was young and had to rush a friend to a hospital.  He was doing post-doc work and he suddenly took ill.  The doctors could find nothing wrong with him.  Except he was dying.  He was from Haiti.  He believed a woman put a curse on him.  We went and found a Root Doctor -- nearest thing to a Voodoo priest we could find.  He was cured.  Probably was all in his head, BUT HE WAS DYING.  



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