[at-l] Hiking Advice/AT2004

[spiriteagle99@hotmail.com (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)]

Bushwacker wrote:
>Everyone has completely skewed this topic way off course.

Yup - we sure have.


>It is not a new website to keep people away from the AT-L.

I know - but there's the Law of Unintended Consequences.  I've been down
this road before and seen the results.  I don't think you have.


>It is not one person dominating others.

Nope - I didn't say that.  Or imply it.


>It is not a non-thru-hiker telling others how to hike.
>

It is if there are no past thruhikers on the list.  And if there are
thruhikers, unless they're gonna do the AT in 2004, then it's not a 2004
list, but just another (and more temporary) version of at-l.


>It is an alternative resource for those who want it.  In just two days 10
>people have joined . . . Not much activity - but apparently there is a
>level of interest.
>
>For so many folks out there that proclaim they subscribe to the laid back
>way of life or the hike your own hike philosophy . . . I am amazed at the
>majority of responses.

Some of us remember the results of something called at98.  There was one
difference there - that at98 was an entirely closed list.  Maybe part of
"my" problem is those memories.

But another part is what was expressed by Susan.  I keep telling people
"what you give is what you get".  In this case, the excitement that you
generate on AT2003/AT2004 is what at-l should be getting - and isn't. Why do
you think all the garbage gets dumped on at-l?  Because those who should be
asking their questions and giving and getting excitement on at-l have gone
off to play by themselves.  So that leaves a lot of people hangin' with
nothing to talk about but - what you've been getting.  Basically, you're
taking the excitement that people look for here and hiding it in your own
private little room.  Basically, the complaint about how much "fluff" is on
at-l is nothing more than the end result of the reticience of future
thruhikers to get involved on at-l and ask the questions they should be
asking.

Now - there are thruhikers who absolutely lust to be asked questions about
their thruhikes, about how to do it.  And their eyes really do light up when
someone asks. What you're talking about is removing that pleasure from their
lives.

Now - turn that around - in a year or two YOU WILL BE THAT THRUHIKER.  And
the questions that you'll want to hear, the answers you'll be ready to give,
the excitement that you're willing to share with other prospective
thruhikers will be short-circuited by someone who starts their own ATYYYY
list.  The same way you're willing to short-circuit all that for the
thruhikers on at-l.  You WILL get what you give.


>This development was based on a business philosophy of following best
>practices.  The Class of 2003 group has about 60 members on it and has been
>very successful at what it does.  Nothing more or less.

So - what does it do?  I'm not putting it down, but at-l gets little to no
feedback from them.

I'll disagree - simply because "best practices" as far as thuhiking involves
just one thing - each one teach one.  Meaning - those who find a Trail
mentor are the most likely to finish the Trail.  That's been true of every
human activity for the last 10,000 years.  How many mentors are on AT2003 -
or AT 2004?

I'm not putting either of them down - but I'll tell you straight up that a
gathering of newbies is NOT "best practices".


>  Take a look at their archive and you'll see that there is a level of
>activity by these individuals that is noteworthy.  Not all trail related
>but they are commonly related to their end-goal.  How did it form?  i don't
>know.  But I was invited to join during the Gathering and I am glad I did.

"Level of activity" is not an indicator of "quality of activity".  But since
I'm not on either one, I'm not qualified to judge the "quality" either.


>I learned some things from the Class of 2003 group site that hasn't
>appeared on any of the other lists - that makes the group site a valued
>resource to me.

If it hasn't appeared on any of the other lists then there are several
questions - first - is it actually worth learning?  Meaning - who do you
know that's tried it FOR A THRUHIKE?  Successfully?

Secondly, if it appeared on ATXXXX, but didn't show up on, for example,
at-l, then why not?  And how many people - how many future thruhikers - DID
NOT learn it because it got bottled up in ATXXXX?

In other words - it's a fragmentation of the AT community and knowledge.


>As has been pointed out by Russ, many who are on this side group are also
>members of AT-L . . . so what's all the flak about?  I'd rather be as
>informed as I can be before my journey with in reason . . . maybe that's
>ingrained in me from my Navy days.  Who knows?  But it's the route I'm
>choosing to take.  I'll still include participation on the AT-L, BPL, and
>HikersRUs, and all the other groups out there that reflect my need.

Yes - you may.  But how about the others on ATXXXX?  Those who are there now
may (or may not) remain on at-l.  But many of them - as well as those who
come in later - won't come to at-l.  And will miss some of the knowledge
that they could have gotten from the (literally) hundreds of thruhikers who
live here.  I've been through this before - and played mentor to several
people who were on at98 - and were largely ignorant of Trail history as well
as what it takes to thruhike before they hooked up with me.  NO - I was NOT
responsible for their performance on the Trail. They were.  But what they
learned from me (and others on this list) made their life on the Trail a
little easier, and their hike just a little better.  And I didn't make that
up or imagine it - they told me so.


>Get over it and move on down the trail there are a lot more volatile things
>for you all to blow up about than this issue.  A lot of you folks need to
>step away from the computer and go for a walk.

I'm sorry this even came up - I'm really NOT into putting down you or ATXXXX
or anyone else.  But there's literally a lot of ignorance about the effects
of "private" lists like this.  When at98 was started up, I wrote a 4-page
email about it, about what effects it would have, about the advantages and
(mostly) disadvantages.  If you really want, I'll dig it out. As I remember,
the predictions I made were dead-on right.  And the negative effects are
still reverberating.

A year ago, I had this same conversation about a "private" CDT list.  I even
made the mistake of responding to that list a couple times because it was
started by a friend.  Then I realized what I was doing.  By providing
information privately to those on a "private" list, I was keeping that
information from those who were on the larger cdt-l list.  And that list,
like at-l, had people who would hike the trail in the future and needed and
wanted the information just as much as the CDTXXXX list.  It also had past
thruhikers who were incensed at the fragmentation of the list.  Those on
cdt-l were irritated, hurt and angry.

And that's precisely what the "flak" is about here.

I didn't tell you what to do before.  I'm not gonna tell you  what to do
now.  You'll do what you want - and that's as it should be.  But remember -
it could come around and bite you.

Come to the Ruck and we'll talk about it.

Walk softly,
Jim


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