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[at-l] OT Wing Foot Ryan

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      It's clear that any List or group is going to try to justify its
actions. As a Wingfoot supporter myself, I honestly thought this was one he
should let slide exactly because of what is happening now.

       It seems to me that someone outside the fear of possibly offending
their list friends should try to explain why some could possibly see the
drive as being questionable. Of all the apologies for the drive I have yet to
see one that dares explain what was being cited as the problem. Rafe is
brave, but uses dictionary definitions or free speech technicalities to
explain his discontent, so he misses the point.

      What the other List master was saying was that the formation of a drive
in order to stop any discussion of serious Trail topics on the List was not
something that helped the Trail. I know we are well past this already and TA
is now the place to take your Trail conflicts, but that doesn't change
anything. The problem is that some see the message in paying people to avoid
confronting Trail issues as steering people away from productive
participation in the AT.

      The conflict WF points out is, although AT-L seeks to remove itself
from the total AT by maintaining a pleasant chat type environment, the action
of suppressing AT thought is one that doesn't coincide with the ATC's goals.
If you exist solely on internet lists, or don't really care about those
goals, then you probably won't notice. For the agency in charge of promoting
those goals to then give praise to a fund drive that was basically based on
silencing mention of those same goals, is somewhat of a contradiction that
persons with strong AT convictions would notice.

     Believe it or not, real, written definitive Trail goals as they exist
within ATC do not fare well on this list. There are those who would perceive
constant reference to credible, hard-working Trail members being referred to
as "extremists", "trolls", "farts at funerals" etc as being the victims of an
AT hostile site -no matter what the group intention for 'tone' be. I
understand and appreciate Ryan's unusual tolerance, but if I could
respectfully address that tolerance and access the purely open nature of this
list for a moment, I would ask him to realize he has created a situation in
which real respectable AT members can be addressed in such acceptedly
insulting terms. I think this is part of the problem WF is pointing to in his
usual unflattering way. But, remember, the flattery comes from both sides.

      If one calls for real objective honesty and doesn't force one to live
within the confines of 'campfire' acceptability, one would realize that
encouraging people towards Trail preservation drives and other AT activities
is pretty much in line with the Trail's purpose. So is keeping an open
discussion of the Trail and its challenges amongst its users. So far, I'm
finding that this basic Trail support is treated like an enemy within this
site. Money is always helpful, and donators are to be thanked and
appreciated, but like urban schools prove, money alone doesn't solve the
problem -especially within a volunteer organization based on participation.
Such an environment makes it possible for characters to bark down any
semblance of AT promotion whenever it appears. It's kind of crazy that the
main objectors who are the first to chase this subject from AT-L fail to
realize that those same "extreme", "Wingfootist" ideas were what built the
Trail in the first place and if they had their way at the Trail's inception
the Trail never would have been built. That is an inarguable contradiction
that calling somebody names doesn't overturn (if you live "in the real

      The problem isn't Wingfoot. Weary is a fine and tolerant member giving
the message over on TA. TA is deliberately politicized and unparticipated. A
lot of what TA promotes is identical to ATC. I think that is what WF is
getting at. And I think it's a valid point. Please don't bother to respond
with one word answers, off-topic personal attacks, or fart references...