[at-l] We're he from the government and we want to help you

[spiriteagle99@hotmail.com (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)]

Shane wrote:
>Theoretically, if I were a newbie, I would want information
>about the technique, gear, and logistics of hiking the AT.
>There isn't a lot of that going on right now, and my
>perception is that this is due to the heated environmental
>discussion.  Were I a newbie, I might not stay.

Shane -
That's not theory - it's fact.  And it doesn't just apply to newbies.  My 
wife has 4 thruhikes and over 16,000 miles under her boots - and rarely 
posts on at-l even though she was a major contributor to the list until a 
year ago.  How many others no longer post?  How many of them have "real" 
information to share - and aren't posting because they have no use for the 
present "tone" of the conversation?  And there are those who've tried to 
tell us that the increased level of stridency, conflict and nastiness on the 
list doesn't affect the list content, structure or information flow.

Bull.

But let's get back to the newbies. There was a time when newbies showed up 
here regularly - asked questions, got answers, went off to thruhike (or 
maybe section hike), came back, and participated in helping others to do 
what they'd done.  That's what this list is about.  Some of us have watched 
that cycle for a number of years.  And we've watched it broken by a few 
(very few) people who have no interest in the "real" purpose of the list - 
only in their own agendas.  For 6 years this was a "hiking" list.  We talked 
about gear and weather and the AT and how to hike it - and about other 
trails, about where we'd been and what we'd seen, about problems and 
solutions.

We even occasionally talked about things like Saddleback - but without the 
stridency and insistence that such things are more important than anything 
else that could possibly be talked about here.

Newbies aren't looking for that kind of information - and when a large part 
of the list traffic consists of that kind of nonsense, they leave or go back 
to lurk mode.  How many newbies have posted here in the time you've been on 
the list?  Or over the last year? How many of them still post?  Not many.  
They may or may not be lurking, but they're not asking questions, they're 
not participating, they're not really a part of the list.  They don't stay 
around long.  And in that respect, the list has failed.


>It would be better for a newbie to join an AT-L with such
>information and discussion about technique, gear, and
>logistics, then 'discover' the ethical side of hiking -
>environmental issues - which he/she could then learn all
>about on its own list if he/she chose to do so.  As it
>stands now, were I a newbie and logged into a list that is
>chiefly 'IS SO!', 'IS NOT!', 'IS SO!' environmental banter,
>I wouldn't stay - and everyone looses...
>
>I think that an experimental separation of the issues might
>be beneficial.  It also may fail completely.  We won't know
>until we try, but such decisions aren't up to me...

Two points - the first being that the list has failed for the last year to 
achieve its purpose - and that if it continues to fail, it will die.  It may 
take several years, but if it serves no useful purpose, then it won't hold 
the membership and it will slowly fade away.

The second point is that Ryan is apparently not happy with the present 
situation.  It's his list - not mine or yours or anyone elses.  This is the 
second time he's offered to set up a separate list.  I think it might 
behoove those who object to that action to take a second look at their 
reasoning.  Personally, I haven't seen anything yet that comes even close to 
convincing me that the massive influx of "environmental" and "advocacy" 
subjects has done anything useful or positive in any way for either the list 
or its members.


Thru-thinker wrote:
>5)  Even in the midst of the hottest discussions we've ever had here in the 
>past 15 or so months, there have always been some other posts to lighten 
>the day, inform, chastise, etc.

Sorry, Clark - but you're wrong.  The percentage of positive posts is too 
low to hold the interest of those that this list needs to survive - the 
newbies.  The ratio of positive to negative has to exceed 7 to 1 in order 
for your statement to hold true.  And it hasn't even come close for most of 
the last year.

Then you said:
>6)  Divide and conquer [the good list synergy] is a bad thing.

What "good list synergy"?  We've lost that - and the pitiful thing is that 
some people can't even see that.  And that a few others don't care as long 
as they get to exercise their right to free speech.  And others just want 
the excitement of the divisive arguments.

We can continue this discussion if you like - I haven't even gotten started. 
  But for now, I'm tired and it's gonna be a long day tomorrow.

Walk softly,
Jim


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