[at-l] WF and AT-L History Long Delete at will

[kahley@ptd.net (kahley)]

>I hear ya, Man I have never seen so much trash talked about a guy in my
>entire life. Don't get me wrong I love my AT-L brothers and sisters but this
>guy must be Satan himself the way he is talk about.

Nope.  Satan is Bill Bryson.  <VVVBG> Or so says WF.
If you wanted to hear trash talk you should been on
Dan's list back then

For the newbees, a history...delete if you've heard it or
lived it like many of us did.

Dan used to be an AT-L-er but didn't like the way this list
operated so he started ATML and Trailplace.  Nothing
wrong with that except he used AT-L posts as the original
data base for TP, without asking any of us permission to
use same.  Tacky, but no one objected too much.
He was family.

The two lists co-existed like two campfires in the same campground.
People popped in on one, checked out the other, buzzed back and forth,
cross posting with abandon and everyone was having a good time.
Differences surfaced.  At-l was the campfire and ATML was the
class room and that seemed to work really well.

Eventually, Dan ended the cross posting and slowly started building a
wall between the two camps until the mention of AT-L was verboten
on ATML, except when he would occasionally refer to "others" in
some disparaging manner.  For him it was a us or them mentality.

This was also the period when he didn't publish the Handbook for
the first time.  He had every right in the world not to do the book,
The problem came from the way he handled the situation.  He never
said he wouldn't do it.  I think, and I have no way of proving this,
that he just didn't have the money to put up to get the book published.
He had a LOT of money tied up in the hardware and software for TP
and I think he just didn't have the money to publish the book (Some
body correct me, but hasn't it always been "self published ?")

Anyway, he never told that year's class that it wouldn't be coming out.
Maybe he was holding on, hoping that money would come so he could
get it published.  Some people say it was never finished.  Dan said
it was a problem with the paper and the printer.  I'm not sure anyone
but Dan knows, but for some reason, the book never came.

As I said before, that was regrettable for the class that was getting ready
for that year but the book is his and he can publish or not.  The thing that
made me feel badly happened the next year.  Hikers would ask when
that year's Handbook would come out and were met with no response.
Eventually, some of them started asking if they could buy a used copy
from the previous year and again no reply until someone  told the truth.
See there is the problem.  Dan never told.  The entire list kept quiet
because they didn't want to make him mad and get the boot.  I kept
quiet as well.  (There lies my guilt.)  I didn't want to get the boot either.
BTW...does anyone remember who broke the silence and warned the
class that it hadn't been published the year before and may not be
again or ever see a post from him after he told?

That year's book did come out, but as I said, too late for most people's
planning.  Anyone remember when?  By that time I had been booted
as well so I don't know.

I was booted because I asked him a question in public.  It was accidental,
I was sooo upset to learn that he had programmed filters into the
journaling software (Trailplace used to provide similar services as 
Trailjournals
does now) that would reject any mention of AT-L, my name and the names
of several other members here.  This surfaced when an AT-Ler attempted
to thank ATML (Dan's e-list) as well as AT-L and some of us by name,
for the help we had been to her hike prep.  She tried several times to
post that passage and it was always rejected.  She tried many of our names
until she had a list that Dan's software would not accept.  She then posted
what she had learned here.  It was no secret that Dan had filters to prevent
profanity, as was his right.  But learning that my name now ranked with
such words, as unfit to print was very upsetting and I wrote and asked him
if it was true.  My mistake was not double checking that I had his private
address and not the list address and it went out to the forum.  He gave
me the boot and removed the filters.  He told me no such filters existed
but when I asked if they had existed, he wouldn't reply except to tell me to
"Go back where you came from" meaning here at AT-L.

You see, he had this thing for loyalty, and people who didn't agree
with him were  betraying the Trail (sound familiar? <g> And people
who were active on both lists were suspected of spying and ulterior
motives.  So bizarre!

It would be as if we forbade the mention of the Light List or Trailjournals
or any other AT or hiking info site on the net.  It was an us or them
attitude that he evinced that caused many of the problems between
him and AT-L.  That, plus when people got the boot from Dan, they'd
announce the fact and  the reason here.  It was the only way they could
communicate with the friends they had made on TP.  Dan had it set up
that people's addresses weren't displayed on their messages so anything
that was said had to go public.  Maybe he didn't like people talking
privately ...dunno ......for sure.

Anyway...that's the jist of it.  He ran Trailplace the way he wanted to
and I have always supported his right to do so cause he paid the bills.
The thing that was at the base of his resentment, IMHO, was that AT-L
did not shrivel up and die when he started TP.  His stated purpose for TP
was that it be a one stop for all things AT and I think the underlying
goal was to be the only stop for AT info.  One of his friends and supporters
actually posted here, that since there was ATML and Trailplace, Ryan
should close up AT-L since it was unnecessary.  AT-L never did go away
and he never forgave us for that.

Well that's a history list of many of the issues with Dan.  Oh....almost 
forgot.
There was the time when TP went down and he announced that he had
given a list of some of our names to the FBI and accused us of hacking.
What a hoot!!!

The problem with that was, the named people were all together at a hostel
which had no internet access that weekend (The first PGF RUCK if memory
serves).  Oh yeah...he really didn't like Rucks.  He thought we had Rucks
so we could talk about him behind his back.  That maybe the real root
of the problem.  He could control what was said on TP as tightly as
he wished but he had no control here.  People here were free to talk
about his use of the title of "The Center for Appalachian Trail Studies"
to refer to his living room or the fact that he hasn't done anything more
than a day hike in 5 (?) years or at least he hasn't been seen on the Trail
in that time or that there are real problems with the numbers of hikes
he claimed.  At one point he did change the claim of seven Thrus to
seven end to enders (even though he had applied for thruhiker certification
and at one time had them all displayed on a wall) but even that is a stretch,
according to the people who were on the Trail during the last years he
claimed to have hiked.  I mean, what are the odds that someone could hike
the Trail from end to end but never be seen north of Damascas except in
town? And the little suspicsion that the late date of the Handbook's release
is more a matter of waiting for the Companion to come out so he can fill in 
the
gaps in his own research for the Handbook.   Or complaints from
trail services as to how one actually gets a business listed in the Handbook.
****NOTE..the previous is suspicion and labeled as such*****

You see that's the problem or at least IMHO.  He could get away
with whatever he wants to, as long as he is dealing with people
new to the Trail who only know what they read on his Book covers
which as has been said, he writes, abet in the third person.

But as long as AT-L existed, there were looooong time hikers who
were and are very familiar with the truth and talked about it....
eventually in public, here on AT-L

We've had vicious flame wars about him here.  There are people
who still hold a lot of hurt and anger related to him and TP.  Some
had journals there that were just deleted without the warning which
would allow them to save their journals. ******Note to future Journalists
anywhere....BACK UP YOUR JOURNALS!!!!!!!   Some resent the way he
shut sown the chats or the woman's forum because they suspect
he just didn't like people talking freely.  Some have other issues
which trigger their tempers.  To cut down on the wars we sorta
agreed that he is a Trail celebrity and just like Earl or any other
public Trail figure, he is a legitimate subject of discussion when
he does something news worthy.  I guess I'm in violation of that
policy here but the posts about trash talk are, IMHO, unfair.

For years I defended Dan here but I'm not about to keep secrets
anymore.  And I'm not gonna sit and let people think there aren't
some valid reasons for the attitudes that some AT-Lers hold toward Dan.

He's not satan.  He's not god of the AT either.  Basically, right
now I think he is just tired of it all and needs a rest....or a hike.

Please gang...if this continues as a thread, be as temperate as possible?