Re[2]: [at-l] Wood stoves: a threat to the trail?

[spiriteagle99@hotmail.com (Jim and/or Ginny Owen)]

Bob Cummings wrote:
>"...biomass availability and growth rate are such that Zip usage "would" 
>damage the environment." argues Jim.

Bob -
You need to get your glasses checked - that statement was specifically about 
hiking in places other than the AT. After you've hiked in those places come 
back and tell me it won't damage the environment there.


>  Jim, even if we both double our usage estimates, using Zip stoves will 
>not damage the trail environment. Assuming 10 miles between shelters, 
>within 100 feet of the trail are roughly 10,000 cords of wood -- half of 
>which is of commercial harvesting size and quality -- the rest saplings, 
>dead branches, dead trees, broken twigs etc. This estimate is based on 
>biomass estimates made in Maine which is not unlike the woods environment I 
>see from Georgia north.

Sorry, Bob - but you're making unwarranted assumptions.  I've seen that same 
Trail - and you'd have some tall convincing to do to get me to believe those 
numbers about nearly anyplace but Maine.  But that's not the point anyway - 
you keep missing the idea that the only area of interest here is the 
immediate shelter area and the couple miles leading into that shelter.  The 
rest of the trail is outside the area of discussion.

Why?

Because by your own words, "you" collect wood on the last stretch coming 
into the shelter.  And I'm being generous with that couple miles.  Most 
thruhikers don't have that much of a clue about how close they are to a 
shelter until they actually stumble over it - so they won't be collecting 
fuel two miles out - they'll be collecting in the actual shelter area.  And 
the vast majority of thruhikers simply won't wander a quarter mile away from 
a shelter to find suitable wood for a Zip either.

The only area of consideration for this discussion is the couple feet on 
either side of the trail for (as a VERY generous estimate) let's say 2 miles 
prior to the shelter - and the immediate shelter area, cause that's where 
thruhikers will look for their fuel.  You're the one who wanted to get real 
- so get real and consider the actual situation - and the actual human 
behavior rather than an idealized theoretical scenario.

Now let's talk numbers - There are 11 shelters in Georgia ( I don't count 
Whitley Gap cause VERY few thruhikers go there).  If 4000 thruhikers pass 
through Georgia and it takes them an average of 6 days to do it, then you're 
talking 24,000 "thruhiker-days" or 24,000# of sticks, paper, wood chips, 
whatever --- just in Georgia.  Or roughly 2200# per shelter area.  Now - go 
collect 2200# of suitable Zip fuel from any shelter in Maine - and then tell 
me what the effect would be if that were done for 10 (or 50) years running. 
Tell me about the denudation of ground cover, the stripped trees, the lack 
of firewood which would then induce the few energetic thruhikers to strip 
the forest even further out in order to feed their arsonistic tendencies.  I 
think a few years of that might convince you  :-)))


>  Assuming this, 8,000 thru hikers using Zips would consume a bit more than 
>two cords between each shelter on their way north.

If there are 8000 thruhikers on the trail, there'll be a lot more problems 
than just finding wood.

>  Even assuming no new wood grows, we Zip users would have a 5,000 year 
>supply.
>
>  Nor are your weight estimates comparing alcohol stoves realistic. My 
>estimate
>  of a pound per day consumed in Zip Stoves assumes 20 minutes per meal 
>cooking
>  times. Based on what I read about alcohol stoves on this list, 11 ounces 
>of
>  alcohol will not last long if you need to burn the stove 40 minutes per 
>day.
>  Rather, I hear stories about an ounce of alcohol bringing two cups of 
>water to
>  just barely a boil.

If you want to boil for 20 minutes, be my guest - but your analogy is 
invalid because those who use alcohol stoves don't bother with your long 
time cooking methods.  It's a different mindset.


>  A typical unmanaged forest in the climate traversed by the AT, grows 
>about a
>  half cord of wood per acre, per year. Within 100 feet of the trail are 
>250
>  acres every 10 miles. Thus, some 125 cords of new wood are grown each 
>year
>  every 10 miles along the trail. We can easily spare all that could 
>conceivably
>  be used by Zip Stove users.

Your fantasizing again - the fact that it grows doesn't mean that it's 
usable for your particular purpose.  Or indeed that it's actually available. 
  Or do you use live branches for fuel?  ----

Hmmm --- I thought not.

Also - you're back into the "10 mile" thing - you don't carry fuel for 10 
miles, why do you expect anyone else would?  Actually, and again by your own 
words, you don't go 100 feet off trail to gather wood either - or did I 
misread that?


>  Realistically, Zip Stoves will never be the stove of choice for a 
>majority of
>  trail users. Zips are a niche solution for those of us who love natural 
>things,
>  for those of us who prefer meals more complicated than offered by instant
>  oatmeal, Liptons, and freeze-dried packages, and for those who are on a 
>tight
>  budget and need to cook 60 cent a pound rice for 20 minutes in order get 
>the
>  nutrition they need at a cost that makes a low budget thru hike possible.

We're "almost" on the same page here.  Your 60 cent a pound rice is what we 
found in the hiker boxes all the into PA - and then again on the PCT all the 
way into Northern California.  We even found some on the CDT.  It's a nice 
idea - but in practice, most thruhikers dump it. If you want to cook that 
way, you don't even have to buy 60 cent a pound rice - you can just raid the 
hiker boxes for the first 3 months  :-))   After that, you're on your own 
though.

Hmm - just as a side note here - while we were on the CDT (which is a lot 
more expensive than the AT) we were paying about $40 per week per person for 
food - and we didn't mess with the long cooking stuff.  That's about $6 per 
day buying straight out of the grocery stores. Now - when we hit town - 
that's where the $40 per day meals came in.  Pizza and beer are always 
expensive  :-)))

Where we agree here is that Zips are niche item for those who are willing to 
put up with their disadvantages.  And I have no problem whatever with that - 
or with those who use them.  What I do have a problem with is when someone 
touts the advantages, but fails to balance the equation with the 
disadvantages.


>  Zip Stoves use a natural carbon product found along the trail. The carbon
>  dioxide they emit is promptly taken up by the surrounding vegetation and
>  through the action of sunlight returned to the environment as carbon.

I won't buy that at all - what they emit is unburned hydrocarbons plus the 
normal combustion products (water, CO2, etc) The CO2 will be "partially" 
absorbed by surrounding vegetation - the same way the CO2 from a Whisperlite 
will be.  And the Whisperlite won't emit the same level of unburned 
hydrocarbons.  The rest of the CO2 (and the unburned hydrocarblns) are 
contributors to what Rafe would call "greenhouse gases".  Not to worry. Rafe 
- I do too, regardless of whether the source is a truck or a Zip  or a 
Whisperlite - or a bovine fart  :-))

>  The fundamental fertilizing elements contained in wood -- phosphorus, 
>calcium
>  and potassium -- remain in the forest as the ash is scattered.

>  Burning wood, assuming you don't burn more than the forest can grow each 
>year,
>  is the ultimate renewable energy source.

Our only real disagreement at all here, Bob, is whether the forest can grow 
enough to supply the Zip users within the limited area bounded by the very 
narrow and limited distance trail corridor and the immediate shelter areas 
on the AT.  And the whole thing is only valid if the thruhiker population 
expands dramatically - AND they ALL carry Zip stoves.  Makes an interesting 
discussion - but even under the most "real" circumstances it's all theory, 
isn't it?

In any case, I've had fun, but I'm finished playing for now - have a good 
night  :-)))

Walk softly,
Jim


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