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[at-l] History (wasWarning! WF Post)

At 08:49 PM 6/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you Ryan.  I did not know the history of the 2 lists

And because Ryan is gracious, you still don't know that dan
'captured' many AT-L posts and used them to flesh out ATML's
achieves when he started it.  I remember it well, because a
bunch of us were chatting one night, in an aol chatroom,
and someone asked if any of us had given permission for
our posts to AT-L to be archived on TP.

We hadn't, of course, but there they were!!!!!!!  He just copied
and pasted them as if they were posted to ATML!!!!!!!!!    At that
time, dan was just one of the gang so we didn't say or do anything
about it, but we still didn't like it...  Maybe that's the reason for all
the copywrite notices on TP,  He doesn't want anyone doing to
him what he did to Ryan and the AT-L posters.

Ryan also didn't mention the number of times when dan's
friends or alteregos posted to AT-L, that it was time for everyone to
leave this list and join up with ATML.. Even saying that there was
no need for AT-L since now there was ATML.  Maybe that's why dan
won't allow the mention of other forums on TP, or allow easy, private
communications between users.  He doesn't want anyone doing to
him what he did to Ryan and AT-L..

Or that he set up his mailer to list AT-L(ist) as his address.

Jim made passing mention of the time TP went down and Dan
accused not just Jim, but alledged a conspiracy among AT-Lers to
hack TP....reporting us to the FBI no less!!!!   Problem was, that
weekend, most of the people he accused were all together at a
hostel out in da boonies.  It was the 2nd RUCK, which in Dan's
eyes was a massive meeting of conspirators...LOL!!  I truly
believe that he was soo incensed that ATMLers and AT-Lers
were co-mingling without his supervision that he shut off TP
in spite and then tried to blame us....

Even after all that, most people didn't publicly dis dan because
he was a part of us.  He had posted on AT-L for a while and
was one of the gang..a hiker!.  But he just kept building his wall
around ATML, higher and higher and tighter.  First no cross posting.
Then no mention of AT-L's existence.  Shut down the chat features
cause he couldn't monitor them 24/7 to  make sure no one
talked about any other AT sites.  No mention of the Ruck fer sure.
Often, if  I posted in disagreement with him, he'd write pri and tell me
to go back where I came from ....LOL.  That's was really funny cause
if you know the history, you see that AT-L was the mother of
ATML, so this is where he came from too!!!!!!!!

When he cut off all mention of the fund raising efforts to re-hab
"The Place" in Damascus.....I knew he was going over the edge.
We might have raised even more money to fix the ole'girl up, maybe
even enough for a furnace so the hostel would be available/heated for
SOBOers, like we wanted to, if we were allowed to share what we were
up to with the rest of the on-line hiking community.  But it wasn't_his_idea,
so no way was he gonna allow us to talk about  "our little project" on his 

That was a real eye opener....real subversive activity dontcha think?.
Trying to raise money because the little church that had funded the
hostel for sooo many years just couldn't come up with the funds to
do badly needed maintenance and improvements and were gonna have
to shut down a hostel that had become an AT fixture and served
"THE TRAIL COMMUNITY" for decades.  Yep..an evil effort for
sure.....not worthy of a posting on ATML.  Where are his priorities
if they can't include that?  We weren't asking him to help or hype
it, just an occasional post.  Maybe he feared that our fund raising
would compete with his own for "THE CENTER"?  HA!

I'd give credit to dan for one thing.....the journals.  Except that journal 
also used to be posted in e-mail. And came right to your mailbox everyday.
No need to visit a website.

Maybe I've grown suspicious of dan's motives, but I've come to view his 
section as bait.  I think he used them to build up 'hits' on his 
website.  Bring the
people in with the journals then get them to sign the loyalty oath 
<g>.  Someone
once sent me a url that showed sample ads that dan had worked up as he 
to make TP a commercial site. We all know "hits" are like ratings in 
TV..the more "hits"
you get the more money you can ask for ad space.  Don't know what happened to
the ad idea, but "watch that space".  Hey....I'm all for the 
entrepreneurial spirit....if he
can make money with ads to fund himself and his "network"  fine!  But he 
be so hypocritical about other's making money from the Trail while he labors
sooo diligently to do likewise.

And anyone ever wonder why he now needs TP divided into a half dozen different
websites?  Could it be to get even better placement on Google?  Six times 
the sites.
Six times more trails to "dan's world".....hmmmmmm.  Brilliant.....the 
boy's got smarts!

BTW..in case anyone was wondering how I finally got the boot, a
journalist on TP noticed that it was impossible to enter my name
in her journal.  WF had started setting filters against people's names,
in addition to the phrase AT-L.  So I wrote and asked him if this was
true, but hit the wrong address and the question went public.  That
was my first infraction of ATML's (written) rules and he jumped at
the chance to boot me for publicly asking a question about how he runs
things ....for asking why my name rated the same treatment
as profanity!!!  What a hoot!

So.....now you know... despite the fact that dan stole Ryan's idea of an
AT e-list, stole AT-L posts to build his data base and repeatedly and very
aggressively recruited AT-L members, Ryan has continued to be not only
cordial, but_protective_of dan. And what does he get in return?
AT-L is a watering hole for jackasses ..ATML rejects...
Nice...really really nice.

Now i ask, who has shown aggression in this relationship.  It's only
in the last 2 years or so that some of us have been_really_speaking
our mind and talking about the real history between the lists, and
the real story of dan's history.  dan's attitude towards AT-L has been
predatory and exploitative from the get go.  Everything that he has
accused us of seeking to do, he has already done......

Now you know "the resssssttt of the story" and why we all appreciate
  Ryan so...he's aces!
Look under the word tolerant in the dictionary and you'll see a pic of 

BTW...Ryan...I didn't know you offered dan the reins to AT-L....sheesh!
What_were_you thinking?????? <VVVBSEG>  Actually I think I can guess...
you were trying to avoid the schism that dan seem to so determined to create.

>except that AT-L was first.  My introduction to an AT mail list was on 
>ATML because TrailPlace dominates the search engines.  I lasted only one 
>season on ATML before I was totally turned off by the official line and 
>Thank you also for running this list the way you do.  It's why I stay here.
>At 11:27 AM 6/8/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> > You have a very good point. That is the killer in this problem. Setting an
>> > edict against the subject or announcing what the AT-L line is to be on the
>> > subject dooms us toward becoming another ATML.
>>I think what you're referring to is my stated dislike of WF threads.   My
>>basic problem with these threads is a personal one that started the day the
>>ATML went on line.
>>     At the time, the AT-L had been already operating for a few years and my
>>concern was more of a net-etiquette one-  if there's an existing mailing
>>list, common sense says you don't start another one with the same subject
>>matter, duplicate efforts and split the community.  I spoke to Dan on the
>>phone about this, but he just said that he "had to do it".   I even offered
>>to split up the web aspects and the mailing list efforts so we could work in
>>our core competencies.    ...clip...
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