[at-l] China Debate (Hit Delete If You Are Not Interested)

[RoksnRoots@aol.com (RoksnRoots@aol.com)]

In a message dated 4/18/01 1:34:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20
spiriteagle99@hotmail.com writes:

<< Hmm =E2=80=93 seems like I started something.  Since you decided to keep=20=
it going,=20
I=20
 see no reason to stop now.  You wrote a lot of stuff, so let=E2=80=99s take=
 a look=20
 at some of what you said =E2=80=93

    *** Well heck cowboy, if we don't get booted from the list -I'm up to=20
that. And, yes, you did start something by being flip about retaliating in=20
deaths against the Chinese for an accident and passing on jingoistic=20
journalism.=20
=20
 You said -
 >>  Please don't include me in promoting jingoistic hatred - even if it is=20
 >>deserved.
=20
 If you=E2=80=99re a member of this list you=E2=80=99re included whether you=
 like it or not.=20
=20
 The only way out is the Delete key or leaving the list.  That=E2=80=99s you=
r option=20
 =E2=80=93 always.

    *** You obviously prefer to refer to the simple definition. I meant don'=
t=20
include me in the "we" in the paragraph about brute revenge on the Chinese.
=20
 Second point here =E2=80=93 I saw humor and a lot of realism in that post=20=
=E2=80=93 but not=20
 hatred.  If you saw hatred, then it=E2=80=99s because you brought it with y=
ou.  Deal=20
 with it - it's your problem.

    *** Yeah right. You post a hoot-up that would only not register as=20
war-mongering with persons of lesser conscience and accuse me of the hate.=20
What about the revenge on the Chinese? Really smart!
=20
 >>Stick to hiking. Maybe China will build a beautiful long distance path=20
 >>that will bring them to.
=20
 China=E2=80=99s Long March was 4,000 miles long =E2=80=93 and a million peo=
ple did the=20
 distance in 6 months.  Your grasp of history is lacking.

   *** The Cherokee did it first on the Trail of Tears to clear the nation=20
for the Great Democracy. I have a slight knowledge of history, thanks. The=20
Chinese did it, for better or worse, to escape the feudal system and=20
warlords. Next.
=20
 >>  America smashes helicopters together regularly killing trainees often.
=20
 If you=E2=80=99re equating our training accidents with the recent incident,=
 your=20
 logic needs some serious work.  The Chinese pilot attempted serious=20
 harassment --- and screwed up.  He was dumb enough to run a non-standard=20
 intercept, violate the international rules of engagement and run his=20
 aircraft through the prop circle of an aircraft that was flying straight an=
d=20
 level - what exactly is your problem here?  His problems are resolved.

    *** Yeah, the godless commie got his. Let's get our Soldier of Fortune=20
next to the Janes there in the rack and do a shoot up. Get the beers! Yeehaw=
!=20
My problem is the fact that a stupid maneuver can be used to foment hatred.=20
Did you not understand that from the first post?
    I bet you thought it was cool when Tom Cruise harassed the Russian in=20
'Top Gun'. Maybe the Chinese pilot saw the movie? My logic is fine, thank=20
you. If you think that using aviation nomenclature to guild your points make=
s=20
them any more valid you're fooling yourself.
=20
 >>In the world I envision we could land in China because we were at peace=20
 >>and this sort of useless hatred didn't take root.
=20
 That would be nice.  But if you expect it in your lifetime you=E2=80=99d be=
tter plan=20
 on living a long, long time.  Your grasp of the present state of the world=20
 is also lacking.

    ***  See Russia... I'm not the one lacking in a knowledge of history her=
e=20
bud. By the way, they lament democracy because it is too expensive to feed=20
themselves and many want to return to communism. Brutal mafia thugs get away=
=20
with a lot over there.
=20
 >>True, and so are we.  [exempt]
=20
 Not if we sign it - and I'm not really anxious to commit national suicide.
=20
 >>I believe China to consist mostly of a primitive peasant class of=20
 >>subsistence impact.
=20
 Your ignorance of the Chinese people is apparently boundless =E2=80=93 and=20=
abysmal. =20
 Do you always argue from a position of ignorance?

    *** You are saying China is a nation like ours of a large wealthy middle=
=20
class using a large proportion of the world's resources and producing a majo=
r=20
source of world climate changing pollution? Please elaborate so I can=20
confront my ignorance. I know China is developing.=20
=20
 >>The poster criticized China's incompetence. The jet was doing a reckless=20
 >>move, no doubt, but if you read any US paper you will read the same on a=20
 >>monthly basis with our own military.
=20
 The Chinese pilot ran his own aircraft through the prop circle of the EP-3.=
 =20
 I think that might qualify as incompetence.  If you have another viewpoint=20
 let=E2=80=99s hear it.  But this time, stick to the point.

    *** OK, here it is. The Chinese pilot could have misjudged a foolish=20
harassment maneuver a sucked down a wing vortex or fluxed up into the prop=20
due to turbulence at a low speed where he was not able to react. Mistake,=20
accident, incompetence - no difference. Aviation accidents happen at airshow=
s=20
and just about everywhere else (including the US) all the time. Are the=20
Chinese ones of a particular brand I did not know about?
=20
 Specifically --- when was the last time one of our pilots did that?  Again=20=
=E2=80=93=20
 your logic sucks swamp water.  If you=E2=80=99re gonna use analogies, use v=
alid=20
 ones.

    *** This winter 2 choppers collided in Oahu killing many marines onboard=
.=20
I don't read Janes, but I read the paper and this happens often (Osprey).=20
When you take a clownish gung-ho my country is right all the time position=20
you expose yourself to ignoring all these things in broad daylight and=20
looking stupid.=20
   Is the US Vincennes, a missile destroyer that launched a missile against=20=
a=20
civilian Iranian aircraft killing hundreds, a valid example of incompetence?=
=20
Only 1 died in the chinese incident. Pan Am 103 registered even more=20
casualties from 'retaliation'. Are all these people's problems now "resolved=
"?
   America now admits that purely civilian targets in Iraq were accidentally=
=20
hit killing hundreds of innocent women and children. During the war I=20
distinctly remember CNN saying the government assured us that Saddam's=20
complaints about this were "propaganda". The bomb delivery technology was=20
recently admitted to be less than accurate. But kill 'em all and let God sor=
t=20
'em out, right?
=20
 >>This could be described as an accident.
=20
 This is one of those =E2=80=9Caccidents=E2=80=9D that happen because someon=
e=E2=80=99s doing=20
 something utterly stupid.  Pointing that out to the world doesn=E2=80=99t m=
ake us=20
 corrupt, hegemonistic, war-mongering, one-sided, blind or nationalistic. =20
 And your statement that it does indicates another logic fault on your part.
=20
 And don=E2=80=99t give me any crap about Nam =E2=80=93 if  you weren=E2=80=
=99t there, you don=E2=80=99t=20
have=20
 a clue.

    *** You could always hit delete. What happened to I'm there whether I=20
like it or not?
=20
 >>I'm not going to argue to particulars of their conduct.
=20
 Then what the hell ARE you arguing?  You need to figure that out =E2=80=93=20=
otherwise=20
 you=E2=80=99re just blowin=E2=80=99 smoke.

   *** Yeehaw!
=20
 >>I think a lot.
=20
 Really???    I haven=E2=80=99t seen much evidence of that yet.  I=E2=80=99v=
e seen nothing=20
 but a lot of carping, complaining, whining and hair-splitting, to say=20
 nothing of a piss-poor attitude about the country you live in and the peopl=
e=20
 who keep you protected so you=E2=80=99re free to complain about both the co=
untry and=20
 those who put their lives on the line every day for you.

   *** The people who put their lives on the line for me are the ones who=20
stand up against this BS that is exactly the same form of what you are=20
fighting on the other side. So this excuses you from confronting hypocrisy=20
over here then? Seems kind of crude.
=20
 >>I'm not saying it is true, but the Navy could fly at a rate that they kne=
w=20
 >>was difficult for the Mig to stay with.
=20
 The EP-3 is a turbo-prop.  Its cruising speed is MUCH slower than the Mig.=20=
=20
 You could have made the comparison yourself if you=E2=80=99d just bothered=20=
to=20
 consult Janes.  Or doesn=E2=80=99t your thinking extend that far?

   *** You display a distinct ability to not fathom the finer meaning of my=20
points. I know the prop is slow. My point is that our military knows the=20
exact speed to make it tough on them and won't hesitate to fly it. Slower th=
e=20
better to destabilize the Mig. To leave them flapping in the wing wash. Get=20
it?
=20
 >>I just have a problem with any person on either side that just trumpets=20
 >>the obedient information he is encouraged towards.
=20
 You apparently have a problem with reality as well. Where do you get off=20
 assuming that every one in the world who doesn't subscribe to your=20
 world-view is a sheep?
=20
 >>You really have to use your brain when you offer sheepish sloganeering.
=20
 Yeah =E2=80=93 so when are you gonna start?
=20
 >>  To pretend that the Chinese would not defend their airspace against=20
 >>spying is hypocrisy about what we would do in the same situation.
=20
 Again, you=E2=80=99ve lost sight of reality --- it wasn=E2=80=99t their air=
space.

    *** The above is just childish backtalk. OK, just replace country for=20
'airspace'. =20
=20
 >>Don't get caught up in mindless military rallying, people tend to get=20
 >>hurt.
=20
 I=E2=80=99d rather get caught up in =E2=80=9Cmindless military rallying=E2=
=80=9D than in your=20
 mindless anti-Americanism and anti-militarism.  A lot more people tend to=20
 get hurt your way.

    *** What is Americanism? Is it defending the theme of the constitution=20
that provided the safety and security of free speech and the ability to=20
present an opposing view to the government and crude mobs? Or is it macho=20
thuggery of enemy fabrication and hate mongering appealing to persons of=20
little individuality who identify better with nationalism? Your faith to=20
party would dovetail nicely with the present Chinese system.=20
=20
 Enough =E2=80=93 I haven=E2=80=99t heard anyone on this list speak from thi=
s deep a well of=20
 ignorance in a long time.  And that includes all the nonsense that was=20
 floated during and after the election.


   *** Thank you for answering. I could have not hoped for a better proving=20
of my point against your underqualified presentations.=20

 Walk softly =E2=80=93 and carry a big stick,
 Jim
  >>

   *** Just walk with the truth as your faith and your guide...