[at-l] Ooops...the answers to the questions about the questions for AT-O

[kahley7 <kahley7@ptd.net>]

I forgot the answer.sheesh!

someone asked:
 I have a couple of questions.
> 
> Is this data collection to avoid copyright infringement by the AT-O?

In a word......yes!  Thanks, ######### for giving me another 
opportunity to make that clear.  I've said from the very beginning 
that if I was into ripping people off, AT-O would have been up 
and running years ago.  Since a couple of us first wanted  an 
interactive, and thereby more current way of sharing Trail info, 
I have avoided even looking at anything other than the Data Book 
and that was to try and track some Thru friends and in no way 
related to AT-O. 
> 
> If so, I suggest that the HATTs and follow-up input folk be advised to AVOID
> cribbing from all published sources.  

Everybody read what he said here!!!!  This has to be info you gather.
If you take a blueblaze to a waterfall, you can tell us about it and if you
want,
give a guesstimate of distance.  No way can we duplicate the accuracy
of the info of the sources ###### mentions and we don't want to!!
That's what the books and maps are for. AT-O will be full of disclaimers
about accuracy and explanations as to how the info was gathered.
Please....I don't want to have to buy or borrow all the books to make 
sure no one is committing plagiarism!!  Use your own words! 

Believe me when I say we will be pushing support of ALDHA And the ATC at AT-O
RELENTLESSLY!!!!!!  They do great work and produce great books
and maps.  But we all know that some folks buy the guides 
and maps and some folks don't.  Take the HATT hike....someone 
hiking one short section of Trail for a couple days is unlikely 
to sink the money into the Guidebook and Map for that section.
But does that mean they should not find out if the springs are running 
in that section or if a certain shelter is a dump because of partiers?

That info is now only sporadically available to e-list members
or journal readers.  AT-O will just centralize and organize this
type of detail that the Trail-orgs haven't.  It's not their
mission but it will be a helpful addition to the Trail community.


> I am particular concerned about data
> and information on road crossings, trail junctions, water location, views,
> swimming holes, campsites, and other esoteric which is contained in some
> detail in the ATC/ Member Clubs/ USFS books, maps, etc.

As I understand it, the key here is unique knowledge and plagiarism.  
The unique knowledge consists mainly of the distances listed in the 
books. This info was gained by the people who publish the books
and they are entitled to protect it as it is their property.
But the existence of mountains, gaps, streams, shelters, waterfalls,
springs, trails, roads yada yada and their general location is not knowledge
unique to the publishers....considered common knowledge.  

Tons of people know about them and know the names so it doesn't matter where
anyone learned of the location or the name.  But the listed distances between
things is either knowledge directly gained, or permission to use it was secured
by the publishers.  We CANNOT go there.  

Same with the wording of the descriptions of features along the
Trail.  The locations of springs is not unique knowledge.  
But.....the wording in any book describing the location as well as distances
listed IS PROTECTED.  Just use your own words to describe 
how to find it.  
                        DON'T COPY ANY BOOK!

Think of it this way.
Say I buy a book published by the New York Museum of Natural 
History about the same museum.  I studied it from cover to cover
since I had never been to the Museum before.  Eventually, I
visit the museum and am so impressed that I create a website
dedicated to the museum.  Are you saying that I couldn't
give directions to the Hall of Dinosaurs or describe the exhibits
because I had read the book?  I may have used the maps and directions
in the books to find my way around the museum but I can still tell 
others how to find a certain exhibit or share what I see when I get 
there.  As I understand it, as long as I don't plagiarize descriptions 
from the book, I'm OK.

It's the same with any journal or trip report or even your description
of Pearisburg south to Docs Knob.  Even if you learned that Doc's Knob
was named Doc's Knob from a book, it doesn't mean you can't talk
about it without violating copywrite unless, maybe, you give the distance
from it to some other point....like maybe 8 miles to Pearisburg
...ooopsss <VVVBG>.  But I'm sure that was a hiker's guess <g>.
Just as we can talk trail here, we can talk trail on AT-O....
It's just gonna be a collection of journal entries compiled to
make it easier to get the info you need.
Courtesy to the Trail orgs and a little common sense goes a long
way.


> As I don't hike with a GPS, inclinometer, wheel, etc.; 

You don't????  whassa matter wid you??? <g>
We're not asking for mileage and grades other than guesstimates 
and there will be lots of warning on the site about that. 
WARNING ALL REFERENCES TO DISTANCES ARE BASED ON A HIKER'S
BEST GUESSTIMATE!!!!
FOR MORE ACCURATE INFO PLEASE BUY A BOOK!  <lol> 


> 
> Town information could cross the line with WF's "Guide," ALDA's "Companion,"
> or the ATC's Data Book.

This info is available online from non Trail-org sources,
like the yellow pages.  It will just save us time if someone can
note that they saw a Superduper Supermart or an ATM in town X.  

> My second question has to do with the requested "Grade" and "Treadway"
> evaluation.  Are you talking about the AT itself, the blue blaze to the
> shelter, or both?

Both.  The note about 'the Trail you walked to get there' was 
confussing...Thanks again <g>.  I just thought that a shelter
would be the logical place to stop and jot a couple notes
about the Trail section they had just covered. I guess I
should have asked that they do the same at the end of their HATT
section too or else there will be gaps <sigh>.  Well I'm
not kidding myself, I know all of the HATTers won't be willing
to do this so there will be gaps anyway.  But maybe eventually,
we will get it all filled in....
> 
> If the AT itself, you could get some "all of the above" answers.  For
> example, the 8 plus miles from Pearisburg south to Docs Knob:
> 
>     Starts as busy highway and then small town street road walking

snip
>     Followed by a walk along an old road way, w/ one muddy spot.

LOL......just one muddy spot???  Wait till we get some reports from
New England!! <g>.  

Good point though.....hmmm maybe add more room and ask for a 
description and condition?  In put please????  I'm already
frazzeled.

 
> Were I to average it all out I'd get something like a "3" or a "4" --
> southbound.  OTOH, I call it a "2" or a "3" northbound.  My concern is that
> neither of these would prepare a new hiker for the climb up Pearis Mountain.

This is an excellent point!!!! I guess we use that space for the worst 
climb of the section??  What do you think??
That's probably what most hikers would want to know....what's the
worst thing comin? <g>.


> BTW -- As segments hike differently from, the north vs. the south, you might
> want to capture that information.

Another Good point!  Ok everyone...when you get to the bottom,
turn around and think how it would be to go up that way.  Yikes..

Half of the hikers will be SBers!!!  So when the Sobo'ers
turn around, they'll be lookin at the Trail from a Nobo'ers
perspective and vice versa!  What a nightmare for the post HATT
effort....  But that's why we think we'll organize the
AT-O Trailguide "from shelter to shelter" and why we really want
pictures of all the shelters.  From each shelter you can 
click north or south to get the info .  The site will be
searchable for Trailheads too thanks to Pittsburgh who has definitely
acquired unique knowledge of every road crossing from GA>ME <LOL>.

Well.nobody said the job would be easy but 
I really think it will be worthwhile.  Even if we get the most basic info,
like 'all the near trail springs were running' or 'this shelter is huge ' I
think it will be a great thing.  Of course the more
the better....so I hope everyone will pitch in and gather the info
and I hope a few of you will sign up to help organize it post HATT Too!

Thanks again for the input.  Now somebody tell me how to fix this
thing???? AAARRGHH.. We have one shot!  Help!
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